does this violate the 1st precept?

Buddhist ethical conduct including the Five Precepts (Pañcasikkhāpada), and Eightfold Ethical Conduct (Aṭṭhasīla).
Sumangalo
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Re: does this violate the 1st precept?

Post by Sumangalo » Thu Sep 20, 2012 2:46 am

santa100 wrote:Could try plants that are natural repellents..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aphids#Control" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Thank you. Companion planting certainly can help along with designing to draw in the natural predators to kill for you.

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Hanzze
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Re: does this violate the 1st precept?

Post by Hanzze » Thu Sep 20, 2012 3:04 am

Sumangalo wrote:I'll certainly check out the essay, I listen to Than Geoff every day. Thanks again for responding.
"There is the case where a disciple of the noble ones, abandoning the taking of life, abstains from taking life. In doing so, he gives freedom from danger, freedom from animosity, freedom from oppression to limitless numbers of beings. In giving freedom from danger, freedom from animosity, freedom from oppression to limitless numbers of beings
The thing is that it really doesn't give freedom from oppression one bit. We just hire others to do our killing with our buying decisions.
We?
Perhaps I will not call myself Buddhist because I just can't get past this.
That would be secure if you can not let go of we. But you might take the Sangha as we, the Sangha of the noble ones. That would put you in a direction you can learn from others.
I've listened to the Ajahns talk on the first precept and they don't allow any wiggle room yet they themselves have others kill for them and benefit from it.
:thumbsup: If you speak of they, don't forget that you speak of the sample of the noble Sangha.
Looks like farming and raising livestock is wrong livelihood but passing the buck is okay. I don't see how the Buddha could condone such a thing.
Do you have such a livelihood, or do you like to judge that of others. Don't forget that you mabye live from them before, accept such things silently if you tell them to be crule. Don't waste your merits and work on your path rather to seek for reasons why you stop and look left and right and wonder why they still do not go.

Maybe you like to read that: Buddha Dharma and Food - consider food as path to liberation
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_

Sumangalo
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Re: does this violate the 1st precept?

Post by Sumangalo » Thu Sep 20, 2012 3:30 am

We?
Where do you get your produce? Do they use no insecticide organic or chemical? Do they not till the ground? If you manage to grow all your own food with no death to any life than I congratulate you and can learn much from you.

That would be secure if you can not let go of we. But you might take the Sangha as we, the Sangha of the noble ones. That would put you in a direction you can learn from others.
Can't let go of we? I've learned much from others. I come here with an aspect of the Buddha's teaching I do not accept.
If you speak of they, don't forget that you speak of the sample of the noble Sangha.
Not sure I get your point here. Of course I respect the Ajahns but that does not mean I accept what they say without pondering it.
Do you have such a livelihood, or do you like to judge that of others.
Not yet. I am judging no one. I am actually saying the opposite. I feel that farmers daily practice of killing insects is a great good for humanity.
Don't forget that you mabye live from them before, accept such things silently if you tell them to be crule. Don't waste your merits and work on your path rather to seek for reasons why you stop and look left and right and wonder why they still do not go.
Forgive me but I'm not sure I understand.

Maybe you like to read that: Buddha Dharma and Food - consider food as path to liberation
I would. Thank you. Please know that my disagreeing with you does not mean a lack of respect on my part. I have not been convinced by anyone's arguments and that may well be a defect in my logic but I don't see it. Maybe I will have insight in future meditation.

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Hanzze
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Re: does this violate the 1st precept?

Post by Hanzze » Thu Sep 20, 2012 3:55 am

Sumangalo wrote:
We?
Where do you get your produce? Do they use no insecticide organic or chemical? Do they not till the ground? If you manage to grow all your own food with no death to any life than I congratulate you and can learn much from you.
It's not so importand how I do or others, but those who have much conviction into the Dhamma and Vinaya, simply abstain form taking what is not given, so there would be, if done in the right way, very less till no involvement. Intentions are very deep.
It's good to direct the mind to the noble one's and to learn and follow their advices, but we also need to walk the way step by step. That means we need to look at our next step rather to make fictions about steps later on. We might fall while our thoughts are in the future.

That would be secure if you can not let go of we. But you might take the Sangha as we, the Sangha of the noble ones. That would put you in a direction you can learn from others.
Can't let go of we? I've learned much from others. I come here with an aspect of the Buddha's teaching I do not accept.
If I could not let go of "we", how could I even let go of "I". Buddhas teachings are not about we, maybe that is importand to understand. It's actually all about you.
If you speak of they, don't forget that you speak of the sample of the noble Sangha.
Not sure I get your point here. Of course I respect the Ajahns but that does not mean I accept what they say without pondering it.
That is very wise, not to forget that Ajahn does not mean that one is already part of the noble Sangha. How ever, if he would teach what the Buddha had taught, he would not be able to teach much wrong. Maybe its good to understand noble (from what the Buddha meant with it) a little more.
Do you have such a livelihood, or do you like to judge that of others.
Not yet. I am judging no one. I am actually saying the opposite that I disagree that farmers daily practice of killing insects is not a great good for humanity.
You are judging no one?
Don't forget that you mabye live from them before, accept such things silently if you tell them to be crule. Don't waste your merits and work on your path rather to seek for reasons why you stop and look left and right and wonder why they still do not go.
Forgive me but I'm not sure I understand.
Give you some time and be careful that you don't lay your self an egg, with your thought. We often have not much compassion with our self and that is a lesson that is very difficult sometimes hurtful to learn.
Maybe you like to read that: Buddha Dharma and Food - consider food as path to liberation
I would. Thank you. Please know that me disagreeing with you does not mean a lack of respect on my part.
Not any feeling of misrespect at all, more over the opposite. There is no higher act of respect as to listen and the think about things other tell. Over all I am never very charming in my kind of argumenting, so I am also used to disrespect. One does not need to take food. No need to worry at all and over all a nice talk.
I have not been convinced by anyone's arguments and that may well be a defect in my logic but I don't see it.
That is good, for the first step. We can neither trust your self or others all the time. It is not that there are inherent bads, but we are not always aware if our mind is very deluded and grasps some views. How ever, it is good to stay with people who are wise and even criticise one, for thing growing better and not worse.
Maybe I will have insight in future meditation.
[/quote]
Mindful observing precepts and the intentions behind them in daily life are the first steps to meditation. You know, we have to many subtile guilty feelings if we do not so, that we would not easily benefit from meditation at all. There is a good essay: The Healing Power of the Precepts

Buddhist practice is not something done on a cushin, especial if we are laypeople and still busy with daily life.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_

manas
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Re: does this violate the 1st precept?

Post by manas » Thu Sep 20, 2012 4:06 am

I carefully and gently captured a cockroach yesterday, and this morning placed it into the tank inhabited by my daughter's pet lizard. I felt sorry for the poor insect, but the lizard has to eat.

I've been resisting this for a long time. I must admit that I don't feel comfortable doing it, but I'm trying to 'do my bit' with the upkeep of the pet.

Sometimes, as a layman, life is just complicated.

_/I\_

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Hanzze
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Re: does this violate the 1st precept?

Post by Hanzze » Thu Sep 20, 2012 4:16 am

Maternal instinct
Sometimes, as a layman, life is just complicated.
Actually not at all, but the Mother instinct of course. We need to find out that we are not here to imitate an idea of natural and to judge.

Image

I guess we have some 1000s of animal living with us, but we do not regard them as pet. Maybe there is a solution be found.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_

Sumangalo
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Re: does this violate the 1st precept?

Post by Sumangalo » Thu Sep 20, 2012 3:40 pm

It's not so importand how I do or others, but those who have much conviction into the Dhamma and Vinaya, simply abstain form taking what is not given, so there would be, if done in the right way, very less till no involvement. Intentions are very deep.
It's good to direct the mind to the noble one's and to learn and follow their advices, but we also need to walk the way step by step. That means we need to look at our next step rather to make fictions about steps later on. We might fall while our thoughts are in the future.
I think you failed to understand then. We, is correct in my previous statement. We cause the death of life with either our buying decisions or by doing the killing ourselves. We either pass the responsibility to others or do the dead ourselves. Again, I find it more noble to not pass the burden.
If I could not let go of "we", how could I even let go of "I". Buddhas teachings are not about we, maybe that is importand to understand. It's actually all about you.
True but we are a community and share many of the same problems. No man is an island.
Give you some time and be careful that you don't lay your self an egg, with your thought. We often have not much compassion with our self and that is a lesson that is very difficult sometimes hurtful to learn.
If I have come across as less than compassionate I apologize. I do judge myself often. It bothers me that I can't seem to get past this in my head.
You are judging no one?
Perhaps judging and weighing the Buddha's teaching or looking for some insight on how it is practical in our world. I'm certainly not judging farmers, but the first precept might judge them as killers.
Not any feeling of misrespect at all, more over the opposite. There is no higher act of respect as to listen and the think about things other tell. Over all I am never very charming in my kind of argumenting, so I am also used to disrespect. One does not need to take food. No need to worry at all and over all a nice talk.
Thank you so much for saying that. I'm often accused of being stubborn and have to painstakingly choose words because I often seem to offend. I still have a strong sense of self that feels the need of defending. I'm a work in progress.
That is good, for the first step. We can neither trust your self or others all the time. It is not that there are inherent bads, but we are not always aware if our mind is very deluded and grasps some views. How ever, it is good to stay with people who are wise and even criticise one, for thing growing better and not worse.
I've lurked on this forum for years and find much wisdom. I'm having a difficult time finding many westerners I can relate to in my local area. Great people but many do have occasional beers and even go fishing. I'm confused over moral conduct in a western atmosphere. So many mixed messages. I'm drawn to Theravada Buddhism because it seems to be practical, where the rubber meets the road type of teaching. Dhammatalks.org has been a great blessing for me.
Mindful observing precepts and the intentions behind them in daily life are the first steps to meditation. You know, we have to many subtile guilty feelings if we do not so, that we would not easily benefit from meditation at all. There is a good essay: The Healing Power of the Precepts

Buddhist practice is not something done on a cushin, especial if we are laypeople and still busy with daily life.

Thank you again.

Sumangalo
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Re: does this violate the 1st precept?

Post by Sumangalo » Thu Sep 20, 2012 3:42 pm

Sometimes, as a layman, life is just complicated.
_/I\_
I agree. Maybe a vegetarian iguana next time ;)

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reflection
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Re: does this violate the 1st precept?

Post by reflection » Thu Sep 20, 2012 3:52 pm

You decide.

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Hanzze
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Re: does this violate the 1st precept?

Post by Hanzze » Fri Sep 21, 2012 1:49 am

Sumangalo wrote:
It's not so importand how I do or others, but those who have much conviction into the Dhamma and Vinaya, simply abstain form taking what is not given, so there would be, if done in the right way, very less till no involvement. Intentions are very deep.
It's good to direct the mind to the noble one's and to learn and follow their advices, but we also need to walk the way step by step. That means we need to look at our next step rather to make fictions about steps later on. We might fall while our thoughts are in the future.
I think you failed to understand then. We, is correct in my previous statement. We cause the death of life with either our buying decisions or by doing the killing ourselves. We either pass the responsibility to others or do the dead ourselves. Again, I find it more noble to not pass the burden.
Nobody forces you to buy. One can live also form what is given. Traditional, if ones understanding of how samsara is, out of compassion incl. wisdom, one walk the secure path of being a "beggar". Some might have good amount o past merits and are able to walk on as layman or as something between. How ever, it is very important to focus on one self. Taking life is very connected with taking what is not given. As long one is not able to let go of taking, it is difficult to be not involved. Living the live of a homeless for example means to give his rewards up to his karma and to the generosity and compassion o others. Sometimes that is not possible because if one has never done such generosity deeds he might even fear that he/she will not receice such actions. So its very important to work on worldly depts first which is a balancing of giving and taking and there might be the time one feels to be able to walk even a step behind this bound in the direction of unbinding and leave this circle.
One thing we don't need to fear is, that there is to less which is taken to much. But it is also dangerous to simply think one is worthy for this and that. Give it time and just focus on your own intention at best in every single moment.
The eightfold path includes in his virtue section right livelihood, which also needs to be changed and adjusted according to the demand of insights in regard of right action. It is not possible to make progress if one does not evaluate his way of live. Like always, if we like to take something new, we need to let go of another. To hold on the old and grasp for the new is not possible for a long time and makes one suffering. It is somehow greedy and we might hurt our self if we ride on two vehicles at the same time.
If I could not let go of "we", how could I even let go of "I". Buddhas teachings are not about we, maybe that is importand to understand. It's actually all about you.
True but we are a community and share many of the same problems. No man is an island.
You are right in the way that we are not independent. We always live from the generosity of others, but we do not need to identify our self with any community and to walk the path of Dhamma, its good to change into a special community where we seek refuge in. Don't worry, even this community is not independent, but worthy to receive generosity and therfore able to give support especial in regard of teaching freely and without strings.

Generosity and gratitude are very importand issues which need to be learned or remembered, as our "modern" sociaty ofte forgets about it. Here is a very good essay to understand a the system of a health sociaty as well as even the way out: The Lessons of Gratitude
Give you some time and be careful that you don't lay your self an egg, with your thought. We often have not much compassion with our self and that is a lesson that is very difficult sometimes hurtful to learn.
If I have come across as less than compassionate I apologize. I do judge myself often. It bothers me that I can't seem to get past this in my head.
Just judge your present intention. If it happens that you see that you violate something, just learn from it, renew your promis and walk on. The sutta given to Rahula is very useful.
You are judging no one?
Perhaps judging and weighing the Buddha's teaching or looking for some insight on how it is practical in our world. I'm certainly not judging farmers, but the first precept might judge them as killers.
The precepts are trainingprecepts, and good in any situation where ever ones awareness might be. Problems start if we do not focus less on our intentions but on 1001 speculations how it could be, how it might have come... Stay where you are. I guess you have enought understanding that there is no such thing as a happy live and wandering on without harming others. Nobody exept an Arahant will be free of violating the precept. Thats why compassionated people work hardly on it to become one step by step.
Not any feeling of misrespect at all, more over the opposite. There is no higher act of respect as to listen and the think about things other tell. Over all I am never very charming in my kind of argumenting, so I am also used to disrespect. One does not need to take food. No need to worry at all and over all a nice talk.
Thank you so much for saying that. I'm often accused of being stubborn and have to painstakingly choose words because I often seem to offend. I still have a strong sense of self that feels the need of defending. I'm a work in progress.
Stuborn is good, it can be even a defense against a strong sense of self. But we need to be careful that against self is not misunderstood. Stuborn in finding the middle needs to crash on both sides hardly, then we get a feeling of where the middle could be.
That is good, for the first step. We can neither trust your self or others all the time. It is not that there are inherent bads, but we are not always aware if our mind is very deluded and grasps some views. How ever, it is good to stay with people who are wise and even criticise one, for thing growing better and not worse.
I've lurked on this forum for years and find much wisdom. I'm having a difficult time finding many westerners I can relate to in my local area. Great people but many do have occasional beers and even go fishing. I'm confused over moral conduct in a western atmosphere. So many mixed messages. I'm drawn to Theravada Buddhism because it seems to be practical, where the rubber meets the road type of teaching. Dhammatalks.org has been a great blessing for me.
We can learn form good samples as well as from bad samples. How ever, it is good and helpful to stay as much as possible amoung people with the dendency to right view. If right view is developed, we are finaly secure.
Not to forget, that you also give others the possibility to benefit from your experianses.
There are less noble people in the world, so its nothing special to be not sorounded by them, but as long as we do not have a certan degree of nobel understanding, we also would not easy see them. No problem to keep the noble Sangha in mind anyway and remember them as soon as it seems there is no good reference.
Thank you again.
That remembers me on generosity and gratitude again. When we do not find anybody as an object for our gratefullness it's good to be greatful to ones previous deeds, we would not come in touch with generosity if we had not practicied it by our self.
To have gratitude in regad of his own previous karma (here merits) is to do not waste them and to share them as well.

Thanks for your share
reflection wrote:You decide.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_

manas
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Re: does this violate the 1st precept?

Post by manas » Fri Sep 21, 2012 2:04 am

Sumangalo wrote:
Sometimes, as a layman, life is just complicated.
_/I\_
I agree. Maybe a vegetarian iguana next time ;)
ha...well I had no say in the choice of species, my ex chose it and it lives at her place. It's just that my daughter loves her lizard, yet is scared and repulsed by what it needs to eat to stay healthy, which is a decent supply of live insect prey. Luckily it also likes finely chopped veggies and spinach leaves, etc, which she is able to feed it. But the bad kamma of releasing live insects into the tank, my ex and occasionally myself, are taking upon ourselves.

Regarding iguanas being vegetarian - yes I think I heard that, they are the only reptiles that are, afaik.

Sumangalo
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Re: does this violate the 1st precept?

Post by Sumangalo » Mon Sep 24, 2012 8:11 pm

Well, I haven't resolved the conflict in my mind but I feel much better for sharing and not being judged harshly. When I posted my thoughts on another forum I was told that I need to become a serious mediator, as though that would immediately remove all doubts.

Than Geoff tells a story about an Ajahn, maybe Ajahn Maha Boowa, who was told of a student who claimed to have no absolutely doubts about the Dhamma, which is a claiming to be a stream enterer in Thailand. The Ajahn covered his eyes and replied that he had no doubts about anything he saw.

Thank you for the conversation all.

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