Path to Buddhahood

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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ancientbuddhism
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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Post by ancientbuddhism »

Dmytro wrote:
ancientbuddhism wrote:The suttas are that vague to you, really?
Did I say that they are vague to me?
Dymtro wrote: Since the suttas are quite laconic, there's necessarily a filter for their full understanding - be it Pali-English dictionary, early exegetical works, or just trendy guesswork.
This is your statement. Is it because the suttas are vague (laconic in the sense of terse to the point of cryptic?) to you, that you prefer as your referential basis “the authority of early Pali exegetical texts.”?
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Assaji
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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Post by Assaji »

ancientbuddhism wrote:
Dymtro wrote: Since the suttas are quite laconic, there's necessarily a filter for their full understanding - be it Pali-English dictionary, early exegetical works, or just trendy guesswork.
This is your statement. Is it because the suttas are vague (laconic in the sense of terse to the point of cryptic?) to you, that you prefer as your referential basis “the authority of early Pali exegetical texts.”?
I don't prefer as my referential basis “the authority of early Pali exegetical texts.” Please read carefully.

I wonder why my personal attitudes interest you so much. My statements were to explain my approach to interpretation of Pali terms, in this case - "bodhi". I still hope for the discussion of hermeneutic approaches on this forum.
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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Post by ancientbuddhism »

Dmytro wrote:
ancientbuddhism wrote:
Dymtro wrote: Since the suttas are quite laconic, there's necessarily a filter for their full understanding - be it Pali-English dictionary, early exegetical works, or just trendy guesswork.
This is your statement. Is it because the suttas are vague (laconic in the sense of terse to the point of cryptic?) to you, that you prefer as your referential basis “the authority of early Pali exegetical texts.”?
I don't prefer as my referential basis “the authority of early Pali exegetical texts.” Please read carefully.

I wonder why my personal attitudes interest you so much. My statements were to explain my approach to interpretation of Pali terms, in this case - "bodhi". I still hope for the discussion of hermeneutic approaches on this forum.
Good earth! I didn’t intend to overreach into your personal space, rather I’m just trying to understand what the disconnect is with what is evident in the suttas mentioned.

To quote the aṭṭha to a sutta is relatively easy, but as to hermeneutical approaches for discussing it there is consideration of the context in the sutta, other readings, its relevance to other materials and looking at what those pesky academics have to say with their trendy guesswork.
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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Post by daverupa »

ancientbuddhism wrote:as to hermeneutical approaches for discussing it there is consideration of the context in the sutta, other readings, its relevance to other materials and looking at what those pesky academics have to say with their trendy guesswork.
As to trendy guesswork, we can quote a delightfully non-laconic sentence from page 20 of Biblical Exegesis and Church Doctrine, by Raymond E. Brown S.S, which you mentioned earlier:
The effort of a few in their rhetorical overkill to demean historical criticism because it is not all-sufficient represents a danger of the recrudescence of the disdain for the historical that has too often marked theoretical thought.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
Nyana
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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Post by Nyana »

tiltbillings wrote:
Ñāṇa wrote:If you can't support your opinion with a quotation from a Theravāda treatise then, in the context of this forum, it's reasonable to consider it a novel, speculative opinion.
You can consider what I have said however you wish. It does not matter to me, but what is rather evident other than merely gainsaying what I have said, you have, in fact, offered no actual sutta rebuttal to what I have said, which – according to your claims – I would think you would be able to easily do. But rather than an actual textual discussion, all we are getting from you here is merely gainsaying, which really does not make for much of a dialogue.
Your inability to locate sutta references which explicitly state that a buddha's awakening is qualitatively different from that of an arahant disciple is insufficient to establish your conclusion that: "The "enlightenment" -- bodhi -- of the arahant is no different from that of the Buddha." In short: you haven't proven anything.

Your obstinate unwillingness to simply acknowledge that your conclusion is both speculative and novel is rather hilarious.
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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Post by tiltbillings »

Ñāṇa wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
Ñāṇa wrote:If you can't support your opinion with a quotation from a Theravāda treatise then, in the context of this forum, it's reasonable to consider it a novel, speculative opinion.
You can consider what I have said however you wish. It does not matter to me, but what is rather evident other than merely gainsaying what I have said, you have, in fact, offered no actual sutta rebuttal to what I have said, which – according to your claims – I would think you would be able to easily do. But rather than an actual textual discussion, all we are getting from you here is merely gainsaying, which really does not make for much of a dialogue.
Your inability to locate sutta references which explicitly state that a buddha's awakening is qualitatively different from that of an arahant disciple is insufficient to establish your conclusion that: "The "enlightenment" -- bodhi -- of the arahant is no different from that of the Buddha." In short: you haven't proven anything.
However, the problem is not my inability to find such a sutta in my survey of suttas that discuss the question at hand, given that the suttas I found support my contention, and though I looked I found none that did not. The problem is that you have not shown that the suttas say otherwise, though you claim otherwise. I may not have proven anything, except that so far the suttas support my contention, not yours. You have made no effort to show othwerwise. Based upon what you have said, I would think that this issue could be easily put to rest by your quoting a sutta or two that clearly defines the Buddha's bodhi as being significantly different in nature from that of the arahants, as you seem to think it is defined.
Your obstinate unwillingness to simply acknowledge that your conclusion is both speculative and novel is rather hilarious.
It is always good to be amused; however, concerning my claim that the bodhi of the Buddha is the same as that of the arahant, you simply have not shown, even though I repeatedly asked you to do so, that my claim is not found in the suttas. It does not seem to be inappropriate to ask for suttas references to support your claim. So, I am wondering if you have anything to actually say other than mere gainsaying?

Also, I notice that you have now twice ignored this question: So, we can assume here that for you, one can never look to the suttas without filtering them through the commentaries?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Assaji
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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Post by Assaji »

I’m just trying to understand what the disconnect is with what is evident in the suttas mentioned.
Is there a disconnect?
ancientbuddhism wrote:To quote the aṭṭha to a sutta is relatively easy, but as to hermeneutical approaches for discussing it there is consideration of the context in the sutta, other readings, its relevance to other materials and looking at what those academics have to say.
Surely.
what those pesky academics have to say with their trendy guesswork.
I find it strange that, giving references to lots of academic works, you call academics 'pesky'.
They conduct an awesome work.
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tiltbillings
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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Post by tiltbillings »

Dmytro wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:I have no problem with the authority of the "early" exegetical texts, but I do not see them as being the necessary final word on what is found in the suttas, and I have yet to see anyone here make an actual case that the suttas must, without question in all cases, be filtered through the "early Pali exegetical texts" to truly understand what they are saying.
Did I say that these texts are necessary the final word?
I will repeat - I mostly draw upon the earliest possible Pali sources. The earlier the text, the more reliable it is. If the suttas don't give a clearcut definition of something, then the next best choice are early exegetical texts. After that, the next choice is Atthakatha, etc. The modern works are usually least reliable.

So clearly there's a difference in our referential bases.
The things is, you and Geoff have not shown that the suttas do not give a clear-cut characterization of the Buddha's bodhi as being significantly different (or different at all) from that of the arahant. As for "modern works" being the least reliable, that is naught more than your opinion, and it certainly does not hold up at all when discussing the issues of Brahmanical stuff to which the Buddha is directly responding. Also, in terms of doctrinal development, it also can be shown that the early commentarial stuff does show some variances with the suttas. So, do we try to back-read the commentaries into the suttas to get rid of the variances?
Since the suttas are quite laconic, there's necessarily a filter for their full understanding - be it Pali-English dictionary, early exegetical works, or just trendy guesswork. It's better to choose the filters with care.
It seems to me that the suttas have a bit more to offer than you are suggesting. The filters/commentaries you have referenced are certainly sectarian in nature, which does, indeed, raise a question about filtering the suttas through the commentaries.
And certainly neither you nor Geoff have presented a reasonable counter argument to what I have presented, which is that in the suttas the Buddha taught that bodhi, awakening, he attained we can attain.
Did I present a counter argument? I pointed out a contradiction in the Ven. Bodhi's passage you quoted.
But, alas, you offered no real support your supposed contradiction.
Surely we can attain bodhi, as defined in Niddesa, but that would be only a part of the Samma-sambodhi of the Buddha.
Depends upon how you define bodhi. The suttas are rather clear on that.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Assaji
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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Post by Assaji »

tiltbillings wrote:The things is, you and Geoff have not shown that the suttas do not give a clear-cut characterization of the Buddha's bodhi as being significantly different (or different at all) from that of the arahant.
I did not intend to show that. Yet such characterization is clearly described, for example, in Mahasaccaka sutta. Buddha attained three knowledges in his Samma-sambodhi, while Arahants attain just one.
that is naught more than your opinion
It's hard to maintain a respectful conversation with such remarks of yours.
Also, in terms of doctrinal development, it also can be shown that the early commentarial stuff does show some variances with the suttas. So, do we try to back-read the commentaries into the suttas to get rid of the variances?
Why would we do so? The suttas are more reliable, as I have written.
The filters/commentaries you have referenced are certainly sectarian in nature, which does, indeed, raise a question about filtering the suttas through the commentaries.
I also referenced Pali-English dictionary. I think it's time to acknowledge that Western monks and scholars have built a new interpretation of Buddha's teaching. Perhaps historically it can be viewed as a certain sect, with salient features, such as "Four Noble Truths" formula, etc.
Depends upon how you define bodhi. The suttas are rather clear on that.
Can you provide a definition of 'bodhi' from the suttas?
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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Post by tiltbillings »

Dmytro wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:The things is, you and Geoff have not shown that the suttas do not give a clear-cut characterization of the Buddha's bodhi as being significantly different (or different at all) from that of the arahant.
I did not intend to show that. Yet such characterization is clearly described, for example, in Mahasaccaka sutta. Buddha attained three knowledges in his Samma-sambodhi, while Arahants attain just one.
Yes; however, are all those "knowledges" bodhi?
that is naught more than your opinion
It's hard to maintain a respectful conversation with such remarks of yours.
You voice an opinion, it is called that and you take umbrage?
Also, in terms of doctrinal development, it also can be shown that the early commentarial stuff does show some variances with the suttas. So, do we try to back-read the commentaries into the suttas to get rid of the variances?
Why would we do so? The suttas are more reliable, as I have written.
I would certainly agree with that, which is why I opted to look at the question of bodhi without reference to the commentarial tradition.
The filters/commentaries you have referenced are certainly sectarian in nature, which does, indeed, raise a question about filtering the suttas through the commentaries.
I also referenced Pali-English dictionary. I think it's time to acknowledge that Western monks and scholars have built a new interpretation of Buddha's teaching. Perhaps historically it can be viewed as a certain sect, with salient features, such as "Four Noble Truths" formula, etc.
That is a mixed bag. There are certainly those who would have no truck with the comentarial tradition, but I am not one of those.
Depends upon how you define bodhi. The suttas are rather clear on that.
Can you provide a definition of 'bodhi' from the suttas?
I already have in the linked text.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Assaji
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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Post by Assaji »

Buddha attained three knowledges in his Samma-sambodhi, while Arahants attain just one.
Yes; however, are all those "knowledges" bodhi?.
Yes, as explained in Pasadika sutta from Digha Nikaya and other suttas, Tathagata "awoke to" or comprehended (abhisambujjhati) all that (I don't know of an English translation on-line):

Yañca kho, cunda, sadevakassa lokassa samārakassa sabrahmakassa sassamaṇabrāhmaṇiyā pajāya sadevamanussāya diṭṭhaṃ sutaṃ mutaṃ viññātaṃ pattaṃ pariyesitaṃ anuvicaritaṃ manasā, sabbaṃ tathāgatena abhisambuddhaṃ, tasmā ‘tathāgato’ti vuccati. Yañca, cunda, rattiṃ tathāgato anuttaraṃ sammāsambodhiṃ abhisambujjhati, yañca rattiṃ anupādisesāya nibbānadhātuyā parinibbāyati, yaṃ etasmiṃ antare bhāsati lapati niddisati.

And as Atthakatha explains, there is an 'omniscience' (sabbaññuta) involved:
Sabbaññutaññāṇapadaṭṭhānaṃ maggañāṇaṃ maggañāṇapadaṭṭhānañca sabbaññutaññāṇaṃ ‘‘sammāsambodhī’’ti vuccati.

Speaking about filtering - it's interesting that specifically in the Western tradition "Buddha" and "Bodhi" are interpreted as having to do with "Awakening", as if from sleep.
that is naught more than your opinion
It's hard to maintain a respectful conversation with such remarks of yours.
You voice an opinion, it is called that and you take umbrage?
Well, I'm not going to argue with you. And I will probably be less likely to engage in conversations with you. It is not about one remark, but about many.
I hope that in the future moderators on this forum will be more respectful and considerate.
Can you provide a definition of 'bodhi' from the suttas?
I already have in the linked text.
I have not found there a definition. Definition is "the formal statement of the meaning or significance of a word".
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tiltbillings
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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Post by tiltbillings »

Dmytro wrote:
Buddha attained three knowledges in his Samma-sambodhi, while Arahants attain just one.
Yes; however, are all those "knowledges" bodhi?.
Yes, as explained in Pasadika sutta from Digha Nikaya and other suttas, Tathagata "awoke to" or comprehended (abhisambujjhati) all that (I don't know of an English translation on-line):
If you are going to quote a hunk of Pali, you need to supply a translatiuon of the Pali. It would also help to give either the PTS references or the traditional reference notations.
Yañca kho, cunda, sadevakassa lokassa samārakassa sabrahmakassa sassamaṇabrāhmaṇiyā pajāya sadevamanussāya diṭṭhaṃ sutaṃ mutaṃ viññātaṃ pattaṃ pariyesitaṃ anuvicaritaṃ manasā, sabbaṃ tathāgatena abhisambuddhaṃ, tasmā ‘tathāgato’ti vuccati. Yañca, cunda, rattiṃ tathāgato anuttaraṃ sammāsambodhiṃ abhisambujjhati, yañca rattiṃ anupādisesāya nibbānadhātuyā parinibbāyati, yaṃ etasmiṃ antare bhāsati lapati niddisati.DN iii 135; TLDB page 436, para 29.
And as Atthakatha explains, there is an 'omniscience' (sabbaññuta) involved:
Sabbaññutaññāṇapadaṭṭhānaṃ maggañāṇaṃ maggañāṇapadaṭṭhānañca sabbaññutaññāṇaṃ ‘‘sammāsambodhī’’ti vuccati.


Speaking about filtering - it's interesting that specifically in the Western tradition "Buddha" and "Bodhi" are interpreted as having to do with "Awakening", as if from sleep.
However, this neatly makes a point about back-reading into the suttas from the commentaries. Omniscience? Maybe, but that still does not make omniscience a necessary aspect of bodhi. "Omniscience" -- or something like it -- can be seen as a necessary tool for awakening, but it is not the actual awakening it self. Or, heaven for bid, the suttas are not totally, absolutely consistent, which then requires commentaries (themselves not totally, absolutely consistent) to try to smooth out the bumps.
  • But as soon as my knowing and seeing how things are, was quite purified in these twelve aspects, in these three phases of each of the Four Noble Truths, then I claimed in the world with its gods, its Maras and high divinities, in this generation with its monks and brahmans, its princes and men to have discovered the full Awakening that is supreme. Knowing and seeing arose in me thus: 'My heart's deliverance is unassailable. This is the last birth. Now there is no renewal of being." SN v 423
  • "And what have I [the Buddha] taught? 'This is dukkha... This is the origination of dukkha... This is the cessation of dukkha... This is the path of practice leading to the cessation of dukkha': This is what I have taught. And why have I taught these things? Because they are connected with the goal, relate to the rudiments of the holy life, and lead to disenchantment, to dispassion, to cessation, to calm, to direct knowledge, to self-awakening [sambodhi], to nibbana. This is why I have taught them. SN v 437 cf DN i 189
  • "The thought occurred to me, 'I [the Buddha] have attained this path to Awakening [bodhi], i.e., from the cessation of name-&-form comes the cessation of consciousness, from the cessation of consciousness comes the cessation of name-&-form. From the cessation of name-&-form comes the cessation of the six sense media. From the cessation of the six sense media comes the cessation of contact. From the cessation of contact comes the cessation of feeling. From the cessation of feeling comes the cessation of craving. From the cessation of craving comes the cessation of clinging/sustenance. From the cessation of clinging/sustenance comes the cessation of becoming.

    From the cessation of becoming comes the cessation of birth. From the cessation of birth, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair all cease. Thus is the cessation of this entire mass of stress. Cessation, cessation.' Vision arose, clear knowing arose, discernment arose, knowledge arose, illumination arose within me with regard to things never heard before.
    SN ii 105
  • Then the Bodhisatta Vipassi thought: 'I have found the insight way to sambodhi, namely: "By the cessation of mind-and-body consciousness ceases ...And thus this whole mass of suffering ceases." And the thought: "Cessation, cessation", there arose in the Bodhisatta Vipassi, with insight into things never realized before, knowledge, vision, awareness, and light. DN ii 35
  • Bhikkhus, the seven factors of awakening, when developed and cultivated, lead to utter revulsion, to cessation, to peace, to direct knowledge, to bodhi, to nibbana. SN v 82
  • Because, friend, this is beneficial, relevant to the fundamentals of the holy life, and leads to revulsion, dispassion, to cessation [nirodha], to peace, to direct knowledge[abi~n~ aa], to sambodhi, to nibbana. Therefore the Blessed one has declared it. SN ii 223
  • A monk who is thus possesses the fifteen factors including entusiasm is capapable of beaking out, capable of sambodhi, capable of attaining the supreme security from bondage [these last four words are used for nibbana]. MN i 104
  • The Tathagata has awkened to the middle way, which gives rise to vision, which gives rise to knowledge, which leads to peace, to direct knowledge, to sambodhi, to nibbana. And what is the middle way awakened to by the tathagata .... It is the Noble Eightfold Path.... SN iv 330-1
  • There friends, greed is an evil, anger is an evil. To dispel greed and anger, there is the middle path which conduces to wisdom, knowledge, sambodhi, and nibbana. It is this same noble eightfold path such as right view, right thoughts, right speech, right actions, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, and right concentration. Friends, this is the middle path which conduces to wisdom, knowledge, sambodhi, and nibbana. MN i 15
  • "So I [the Buddha], monks being liable to birth because of self, having known the perils in what is liable to birth, seeking freedom from birth, the uttermost security from the bonds -- nibbana -- won freedom from birth [ajata], the uttermost security from the bonds -- nibbana...."
    ...

    "Then the group of five monks, being thus exhorted, this instructed by me
    [the Buddha], being liable to birth because of self, having known the perils in what is liable to birth, seeking freedom from birth, the uttermost security from the bonds -- nibbana [nirvana] -- won freedom from birth [ajata], the uttermost security from the bonds -- nibbana...." Majjhima Nikaya I 167 and 173.
  • "Come, this is the Way, this is the course I [the Buddha] have followed until, having realized by my own super-knowledge the matchless plunge into Brahma-faring, I have made it known. Come you too, follow likewise, so that you also, having realized by your own super-knowledge the matchless plunge into the Brahma-faring, may abide in it." -- AN I 168-69.

  • He [the Buddha] says: 'Here! This is the path, this is the practice that, having practiced, I make known the unexcelled gaining of a footing in the holy life, having directly known & realized it for myself. Come! You, too, practice in such a way that you will remain in the unexcelled gaining of a footing in the holy life [attaining nibbana], having directly known & realized it for yourselves.' Thus the Teacher teaches the Dhamma, and others practice, for Suchness. And there are countless hundreds of them, countless thousands of them, countless hundreds of thousands of them. This being the case … this business of going-forth … one that benefits countless beings…. AN I 168-69. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/su ... 3-060.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
  • 'Two things, o monks, I [the Buddha] came to know well: not to be content with good states of mind, so far achieved and to be unremitting in the struggle for the goal. Unremittingly, indeed, did I struggle and I resolved: "Let skin, sinews and bones remain; let flesh and blood in the body dry up: yet there shall be no ceasing of energy, manly energy, manly effort!"

    'Through heedfulness have I won sambodhi, through effort have I won the unsurpassable security from bondage
    [yogakkhemo=nibbana]. 'If you, O monks, will struggle unremittingly and resolve: "Let skin ... [as above] manly effort" -- then you, too, O monks, will soon realize here and now, through your own direct knowledge, that unequaled goal of the holy life."' -- AN II ii 5.
  • "That which is the destruction of greed, hatred and delusion is nibbana." SN IV 251 and IV 321
  • "The destruction of greed, hatred, and delusion is arahantship." SN IV 359
  • "Whoever frees himself from the passions of lust, hatred, and delusion, they call him, one who is self developed, made divine, thus-gone (tathagatam), awake (buddham), one who has left fear and hatred, and one who has let go of all." Itivuttaka 57
  • Dhammapada 419: "Who knows in every way the passing away and rebirth of beings, unattached, well-gone [sugata], awake [buddham], That one I [the Buddha] call brahmana."
  • The Buddha speaking: The Blessed Lord is awakened [buddho] and teaches a doctrine of awakening [bodhi], he is self-restrained and teaches a doctrine of self-restraint, he is calm and teaches a doctrine of calm. He has gone beyond and teaches a doctrine of going beyond, he has attained nibbana and teaches a doctrine for gaining nibbana. DN iii 54-5 cf MN ii 235
In other words: I, the Buddha, through my own efforts attained sambodhi, you too, making the same effort can win that very same goal. While the powers of the Buddha are significantly great in order to break through the bonds of avijja, the Buddha is not claiming here some sort of different awakening for himself from that which he teaches, anymore than he is claiming a different self-restraint or a different nibbana.
Can you provide a definition of 'bodhi' from the suttas?
I already have in the linked text.
I have not found there a definition. Definition is "the formal statement of the meaning or significance of a word".
The defintion is in the usage.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Post by ancientbuddhism »

Dmytro wrote:
I’m just trying to understand what the disconnect is with what is evident in the suttas mentioned.
Is there a disconnect?
Could be. What is the difference between the bodhi of arahants and the attributes of a sammāsambuddha?
Dmytro wrote:
ancientbuddhism wrote:To quote the aṭṭha to a sutta is relatively easy, but as to hermeneutical approaches for discussing it there is consideration of the context in the sutta, other readings, its relevance to other materials and looking at what those academics have to say.
Surely.
My comment is a little edited here, but we may agree, at least in part, on hermeneutics
Dmytro wrote:
what those pesky academics have to say with their trendy guesswork.
I find it strange that, giving references to lots of academic works, you call academics 'pesky'.
They conduct an awesome work.
You had mentioned trendy guesswork earlier, I wondered to what or who that was pointing to. My opinion would be mixed I suppose. There are some writers on popular "Buddhist" topics, Stephen Batchelor as one, who I think make reckless claims. Otherwise there are others who, as you say, do awesome work, such as Norman, Gombrich, Kalupahana.

I appreciate that you do not rely on translations, but as far as translators go I think B. Bodhi has done a marvelous job. I think it is refreshing that a translator will cite the comy with reservation to his critique of them when needed.
I say, beware of all enterprises that require new clothes, and not rather a new wearer of clothes.” – Henry David Thoreau, Walden, 1854

Secure your own mask before assisting others. – NORTHWEST AIRLINES (Pre-Flight Instruction)

A Handful of Leaves
vinasp
Posts: 1675
Joined: Tue Aug 18, 2009 7:49 pm
Location: Bristol. United Kingdom.

Re: Path to Buddhahood

Post by vinasp »

Hi Dmytro,

Quote:"Buddha attained three knowledges in his Samma-sambodhi, while Arahants attain just one."
[in ref to MN 36]

In my opinion those three knowledges are very suspect. How can we take the first two
seriously, when Gotama has not yet broken through to the four noble truths, and not
yet seen the path which eliminates the asava's? He is still a puthujjana at that point.
Only the third knowledge removes ignorance.

Regards, Vincent.
daverupa
Posts: 5980
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2011 6:58 pm

Re: Path to Buddhahood

Post by daverupa »

Dmytro wrote:And as Atthakatha explains,
This goes to the point, namely that such a later source, if set aside, means we ought to conclude what exactly with respect to suttas such as the following:
SN 56.5 wrote:Bhikkhus, whatever ascetics or brahmins in the past fully awakened to things as they really are, all fully awakened to the four noble truths as they really are. Whatever ascetics or brahmins in the future will fully awaken to things as they really are, all will fully awaken to the four noble truths as they really are. Whatever ascetics or brahmins at present have fully awaken to things as they really are, all have fully awakened to the four noble truths as they really are.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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