New Book on Mindfulness by Thanissaro Bhikkhu
Re: New Book on Mindfulness by Thanissaro Bhikkhu
It would be ideal to know what they (Joe G. and Rev. T) think of each other.
Re: New Book on Mindfulness by Thanissaro Bhikkhu
What I'm trying (and probably failing) to get at is that we don't want to think about the sati/remembering connection because it de-"mystifies" or at least diminishes our romantic idealizations and imaginations of sati as more than remembering. But while we might lament the deglamorization of sati seeing this necessary connection entails, it highlights the crucial and pivotal importance of remembering to practice--which our hopes in and opinions and beliefs about sati distract us from. Try doing without all the functions and purposes remembering serves in your practice and you'll very quickly see just how much of it involves simply remembering. You'll also notice that doings like this are a very different activity than "bare awareness" doings like meditating on "whatever-comes-up."tiltbillings wrote:The interesting issue is: what does "remembering' mean? What does "remembering" mean in terms of the practice?danieLion wrote:That's right. It's remembering in relationship to the other seven path factors.tiltbillings wrote:Which is to say that sati is not simply remembering.
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Re: New Book on Mindfulness by Thanissaro Bhikkhu
Are you one of those who is advocating a strawman notion of "bare attention" and vipassana practice?danieLion wrote: Try doing without all the functions and purposes remembering serves in your practice and you'll very quickly see just how much of it involves simply remembering. You'll also notice that doings like this are a very different activity than "bare awareness" doings like meditating on "whatever-comes-up."
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Re: New Book on Mindfulness by Thanissaro Bhikkhu
Drawing implications from only one sutta, and disregarding all others, is the major source of this misunderstanding.What Ven Bodhi said:
sati, in the context of satipaṭṭhāna practice, is always practiced as part of an’anupassanā,’ I think that is reasonable, in the context of how the Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta is structured.
- We should remember that sati, in the context of satipaṭṭhāna practice, is always practiced
as part of an’anupassanā,’ and this word helps to bring out the role of sati. We usually
translate ‘anupassanā’ as “contemplation,” thus ‘kāyānupassanā’ as “contemplation of
the body,” but this might be somewhat misleading. It might be more accurate, and more
literal, to translate it as “observation.” The word is made up of a prefix ‘anu’ which
suggests repetition, and ’passanā’, which means “seeing, viewing.” So sati is part of a
process that involves a close, repetitive observation of the object.
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Re: New Book on Mindfulness by Thanissaro Bhikkhu
Maybe, but not that you have shown. I'll go with the far more learned Ven Bodhi on this.Dmytro wrote:Drawing implications from only one sutta, and disregarding all others, is the major source of this misunderstanding.What Ven Bodhi said:
sati, in the context of satipaṭṭhāna practice, is always practiced as part of an’anupassanā,’ I think that is reasonable, in the context of how the Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta is structured.
- We should remember that sati, in the context of satipaṭṭhāna practice, is always practiced
as part of an’anupassanā,’ and this word helps to bring out the role of sati. We usually
translate ‘anupassanā’ as “contemplation,” thus ‘kāyānupassanā’ as “contemplation of
the body,” but this might be somewhat misleading. It might be more accurate, and more
literal, to translate it as “observation.” The word is made up of a prefix ‘anu’ which
suggests repetition, and ’passanā’, which means “seeing, viewing.” So sati is part of a
process that involves a close, repetitive observation of the object.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Re: New Book on Mindfulness by Thanissaro Bhikkhu
As a side note - it's interesting to note the character of the arguments.
"Such-and-such interpreter and commentator, with his vast store of knowledge, couldn't have erred. (And he knew much more than any of you.)"
The same type of arguments were applied in the evolution of Buddhism in the East.
Seems like the first wave Western interpreters and commentators are assigned the role similar to Ven. Buddhaghosa's.
And now the sub-commentaries appear.
"Such-and-such interpreter and commentator, with his vast store of knowledge, couldn't have erred. (And he knew much more than any of you.)"
The same type of arguments were applied in the evolution of Buddhism in the East.
Seems like the first wave Western interpreters and commentators are assigned the role similar to Ven. Buddhaghosa's.
And now the sub-commentaries appear.
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Re: New Book on Mindfulness by Thanissaro Bhikkhu
I haven't seen that quote on this thread. Though I can guess who it was meant for. Not a very intellectual response in my opinion.Dmytro wrote:As a side note - it's interesting to note the character of the arguments.
"Such-and-such interpreter and commentator, with his vast store of knowledge, couldn't have erred. (And he knew much more than any of you)"
To error is human. I think we can all agree. But when it comes to knowledge I think the venerables have a bit more then lay people chatting on this thread. Nothing wrong with showing respect to their teachings. I have Ven Bodhi's translation of the Majjhima Nikaya next to my bed, and I'm quite grateful.
May all be well
"whatever one frequently thinks and ponders upon will be the inclination of one's mind"
Re: New Book on Mindfulness by Thanissaro Bhikkhu
It seems as if the more authority given to each subsequent interpretation, the more the practice deviates from the Buddha's original message. Also, when you mix ideas from other Buddhist traditions, new age philosophies, and then add modern psychology to the mix things become even more distorted. A useful way of validating these interpretations would be to refer back (often if possible) to what the Buddha actually said in his discourses. I don't see this happening as often as I would like.Dmytro wrote:As a side note - it's interesting to note the character of the arguments.
"Such-and-such interpreter and commentator, with his vast store of knowledge, couldn't have erred. (And he knew much more than any of you.)"
The same type of arguments were applied in the evolution of Buddhism in the East.
Seems like the first wave Western interpreters and commentators are assigned the role similar to Ven. Buddhaghosa's.
And now the sub-commentaries appear.
- tiltbillings
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Re: New Book on Mindfulness by Thanissaro Bhikkhu
Of course, such and such interpretor and commentator might be quite wrong, but simply stating he or she is wrong without actually doing the work of dismantling his or her argument does not raise the quality of the argumentation, either.twelph wrote:Dmytro wrote:As a side note - it's interesting to note the character of the arguments.
"Such-and-such interpreter and commentator, with his vast store of knowledge, couldn't have erred. (And he knew much more than any of you.)"
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Re: New Book on Mindfulness by Thanissaro Bhikkhu
Sure. The "Four Great References" from the Mahaparinibbana sutta are an excellent guide here.tiltbillings wrote:Of course, such and such interpretor and commentator might be quite wrong, but simply stating he or she is wrong without actually doing the work of dismantling his or her argument does not raise the quality of the argumentation, either.
- tiltbillings
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Re: New Book on Mindfulness by Thanissaro Bhikkhu
Not that you have shown.Dmytro wrote:Sure. The "Four Great References" from the Mahaparinibbana sutta are an excellent guide here.tiltbillings wrote:Of course, such and such interpretor and commentator might be quite wrong, but simply stating he or she is wrong without actually doing the work of dismantling his or her argument does not raise the quality of the argumentation, either.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Re: New Book on Mindfulness by Thanissaro Bhikkhu
Not that you have seen : )tiltbillings wrote:Not that you have shown.
- tiltbillings
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Re: New Book on Mindfulness by Thanissaro Bhikkhu
One cannot see what is not shown.Dmytro wrote:Not that you have seen : )tiltbillings wrote:Not that you have shown.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Re: New Book on Mindfulness by Thanissaro Bhikkhu
Forgive me, as I am only halfway through the book, but I'm going to try to get caught up on this thread.
This "bare attention" approach, no matter if there is a techer teaching it, seems to be getting picked up by students. It definitely seems to be "out there" in the Buddhist lexicon, so shouldn't it be fair to criticize the approach? Even if the actual good teachers have a context and more depth than a stripped down "bare attention", a lot of students seem to miss that. Maybe Ajaan Geoff should be seen as criticising, not the various teachers' understanding of the dhamma, but their methods for teaching the dhamma, whose "bare attention" approach may be dangerous to the casual student who's take away lesson may be to sit on the couch in "bare attention" doing whatever activities they please.tiltbillings wrote:Maybe, but he does not quote Goldstein, so it becomes hard to take what he says seriously as criticism of Goldstein, or any one else. It reads as a bit of a straw man argument. If one is going to argue against a postion, then put that position out there as accurately and fully as possible, then one should do one's best to beat it up, if it needs beating up. I do not see that as what has happened in this book.
Sotthī hontu nirantaraṃ - May you forever be well.
Re: New Book on Mindfulness by Thanissaro Bhikkhu
Excluding the controversies, what do you think about the book so far?Buckwheat wrote:Forgive me, as I am only halfway through the book, but I'm going to try to get caught up on this thread.This "bare attention" approach, no matter if there is a techer teaching it, seems to be getting picked up by students. It definitely seems to be "out there" in the Buddhist lexicon, so shouldn't it be fair to criticize the approach? Even if the actual good teachers have a context and more depth than a stripped down "bare attention", a lot of students seem to miss that. Maybe Ajaan Geoff should be seen as criticising, not the various teachers' understanding of the dhamma, but their methods for teaching the dhamma, whose "bare attention" approach may be dangerous to the casual student who's take away lesson may be to sit on the couch in "bare attention" doing whatever activities they please.tiltbillings wrote:Maybe, but he does not quote Goldstein, so it becomes hard to take what he says seriously as criticism of Goldstein, or any one else. It reads as a bit of a straw man argument. If one is going to argue against a postion, then put that position out there as accurately and fully as possible, then one should do one's best to beat it up, if it needs beating up. I do not see that as what has happened in this book.