Path to Buddhahood

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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tiltbillings
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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Post by tiltbillings »

Here is the basic argument from the suttas concerning bodhi that I am making:

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>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
daverupa
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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Post by daverupa »

Ñāṇa wrote:One can quite rightly infer from this passage, when taken in conjunction with the passages supplied here, that the knowledge and other aptitudes required to give rise to the path previously unarisen is necessarily more extensive than that required by a sāvaka to follow the path to the point of fruition once it has been disclosed and taught in detail. This is precisely what every Buddhist tradition has concluded from the content of the Nikāyas.
That other knowledge, and those aptitudes, do not qualify bodhi. I can grant that they might be required on account of being the first, but it renders the same bodhi.

In any event, given that these things weren't taught, they are leaves in the trees, yes?
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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tiltbillings
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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Post by tiltbillings »

Ñāṇa wrote:
daverupa wrote:
Ñāṇa wrote:no historical precedent in the suttas
Well, one wonders:

The Blessed One said, "The Tathagata — the worthy one, the rightly self-awakened one — is the one who gives rise to the path (previously) unarisen, who engenders the path (previously) unengendered, who points out the path (previously) not pointed out. He knows the path, is expert in the path, is adept at the path. And his disciples now keep following the path and afterwards become endowed with the path.

"This is the difference, this the distinction, this the distinguishing between one rightly self-awakened and a monk discernment-released."
One can quite rightly infer from this passage, when taken in conjunction with the passages supplied here, that the knowledge and other aptitudes required to give rise to the path previously unarisen is necessarily more extensive than that required by a sāvaka to follow the path to the point of fruition once it has been disclosed and taught in detail. This is precisely what every Buddhist tradition has concluded from the content of the Nikāyas.
I am certainly not disagreeing with what is required for the bodhisatta to become a buddha, one who has attained bodhi. The problem with the "here" is in the question of what is bodhi. The 32 marks aren't bodhi as described in the suttas, nor is omniscience. And the one thing we do see in the suttas is that what the Buddha attained in terms of bodhi is what the arahant attains. So, the question is: What is bodhi as defined by the suttas?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Tom
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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Post by Tom »

Thank you all for your input. Do arahants obtain omniscience?
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tiltbillings
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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Post by tiltbillings »

ccharles wrote:Thank you all for your input. Do arahants obtain omniscience?
It is not claimed of them in the suttas.



For your consideration: Was the Buddha Omniscient?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Nyana
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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Post by Nyana »

daverupa wrote:That other knowledge, and those aptitudes, do not qualify bodhi. I can grant that they might be required on account of being the first, but it renders the same bodhi.
Given that a buddha awakens to what has not been known before, it seems reasonable to infer that knowledge and other aptitudes do qualify awakening.
daverupa wrote:In any event, given that these things weren't taught, they are leaves in the trees, yes?
For a sāvaka disciple, yes.
Nyana
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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Post by Nyana »

tiltbillings wrote:The problem with the "here" is in the question of what is bodhi. The 32 marks aren't bodhi as described in the suttas, nor is omniscience. And the one thing we do see in the suttas is that what the Buddha attained in terms of bodhi is what the arahant attains. So, the question is: What is bodhi as defined by the suttas?
Already addressed: AN 4.24 implicitly accounts for the stage of omniscience (sabbaññutabhūmi). SN 6.1 implicitly accounts for the knowledge of degrees of maturity in the faculties of sentient beings (indriyaparopariyattañāṇa) and the knowledge of the dispositions and underlying tendencies of sentient beings (āsayānusayañāṇa).

Both explanations are straight out of the Theravāda commentaries on the suttas, and in addition to what was offered from the canonical Psm here, renders your opinion that, "The "enlightenment" -- bodhi -- of the arahant is no different from that of the Buddha," an example of modernist secular revisionism that has no precedent in the history of Theravāda Buddhism.
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tiltbillings
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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Post by tiltbillings »

Ñāṇa wrote:
daverupa wrote:That other knowledge, and those aptitudes, do not qualify bodhi. I can grant that they might be required on account of being the first, but it renders the same bodhi.
Given that a buddha awakens to what has not been known before, it seems reasonable to infer that knowledge and other aptitudes do qualify awakening.
Except in the highly radical teachings of the suttas that does not seem to be the case at all.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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tiltbillings
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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Post by tiltbillings »

Ñāṇa wrote:"The "enlightenment" -- bodhi -- of the arahant is no different from that of the Buddha," an example of modernist secular revisionism that has no precedent in the history of Theravāda Buddhism.
Suggesting that I am a modernist secular revisionist (if that is what you are doing, but hopefuly it isn't), as a way of trying to dismiss what I am saying, is quite meaningless. You would do better to directly counter my position by showing what it is that I said, using the texts I quoted and showing how what I said the text are saying is wrong.

has no precedent in the history of Theravāda Buddhism

That is not quite so. Bhikkhu Bodhi recognizes the point I have raised:

Later forms of Buddhism draw extreme distinctions between the Buddhas and the arahants, but in the Nikayas this distinction is not as sharp as one might expect if one takes the later texts as the benchmark of interpretation. On the one hand, the Buddha is an arahant, as is evident from the standard verse of homage to the Blessed One; on the other, arahants are buddhas, in the sense that they have attained full enlightenment, sambodhi, by awakening to the same truths that the Buddha himself realized.A Buddha has the function of discovering and expounding the path, and he also possesses a unique familiarity with the intricacies of the path not shared by his disciples. His disciples follow the path he reveals and attain enlightenment afterward, under his guidance. IN THE BUDDHA’S WORDS, by Bhikkhu Bodhi. Page 382.

Ven Nyanatiloka:
  • bodhi
    (from verbal root budhi, to awaken, to understand): awakenment, enlightenment, supreme knowledge. "(Through Bodhi) one awakens from the slumber or stupor (inflicted upon the mind) by the defilements (kilesa) and comprehends the Four Noble Truths (sacca)" (Com. to M. 10).

    The enlightenment of a Buddha is called sammā-sambodhi, 'perfect enlightenment'. The faith (saddhā) of a lay follower of the Buddha is described as "he believes in the enlightenment of the Perfect One" (saddahati Tathāgatassa bodhim: M.53, A.III.2).

    As components of the state of enlightenment and contributory factors to its achievement, are mentioned in the texts: the 7 factors of enlightenment (bojjhanga = bodhi-anga) and the 37 'things pertaining to enlightenment' (bodhipakkhiya-dhammā). In one of the later books of the Sutta-Pitaka, the Buddhavamsa, 10 bodhipācana-dhammā are mentioned, i.e. qualities that lead to the ripening of perfect enlightenment; these are the 10 perfections (pāramī).

    There is a threefold classification of enlightenment:

    1. that of a noble disciple (sāvaka-bodhi, q.v.). i.e. of an Arahat,
    2. of an Independently Enlightened One (pacceka-bodhi, q.v.), and
    3. of a Perfect Enlightened One (sammā-sambodhi).
    This 3-fold division, however, is of later origin, and in this form it neither occurs in the canonical texts nor in the older Sutta commentaries. The closest approximation to it is found in a verse sutta which is probably of a comparatively later period, the Treasure Store Sutta (Nidhikkanda Sutta) of the Khuddakapātha, where the following 3 terms are mentioned in stanza 15: sāvaka-pāramī, pacceka-bodhi, buddha-bhūmi (see Khp. Tr., pp. 247f.).

    The commentaries (e.g. to M., Buddhavamsa, Cariyapitaka) generally give a 4-fold explanation of the word bodhi:

    1. the tree of enlightenment,
    2. the holy path (ariya-magga),
    3. Nibbāna,
    4 omniscience (of the Buddha: sabbaññutā-ñāna).
    As to (2), the commentaries quote Cula-Nidesa where bodhi is defined as the knowledge relating to the 4 paths (of Stream-entry, etc.; catūsu maggesu ñāna).

    Neither in the canonical texts nor in the old commentaries is it stated that a follower of the Buddha may choose between the three kinds of enlightenment and aspire either to become a Buddha, a Pacceka-Buddha, or an Arahat-disciple. This conception of a choice between three aspirations is, however, frequently found in present-day Theravāda countries, e.g. in Sri Lanka.
    http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/b_f/bodhi.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I have no problem with: This and that is what the Theravada classically teaches. But one also can enter into dialogue with the suttas, asking what they teach; is it the same as as what one finds in the classical doctrinal aspects of the Theravada? That is a valid line of inquiry and that does not mean that I or others who might do this are some sort of naughty modernist secular revisionists who just don't get it.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Hanzze
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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Post by Hanzze »

A Buddha has the function
I guess that is maybe the key. So is there any need to claim or appear?
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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fig tree
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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Post by fig tree »

ccharles wrote:If one had already successfully made the aspiration to become a Buddha in the presence of a Buddha in a past life, how would one know? If one has not done that, is there a path one can take to eventually meet a Buddha in a future life, so he can then successfully make the aspiration?
Ven. Nanarama writes in his "The Seven Stages of Purification" that at the stage of "knowledge of equanimity about formations" one can ascertain whether one has made such an aspiration (for Buddhahood, Paccekabuddhahood, chief discipleship, etc.), which can prevent some from going beyond that stage.

If a person reaches such a stage, completing the path would be of great benefit both to themselves and to the rest of us in this Buddha sasana, which they could then help to maintain. If it should happen in rare instances to be the case that by "holding off" one can be of even more benefit... I'll leave it up to that person to recognize when that is the case.

Fig Tree
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Hanzze
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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Post by Hanzze »

I guess the Buddha would not have given such addvices, remembering the countless we might have met, claiming to have seen a special task for them selfs. We percept, dream and see much, therefore I guess it is useful to focus just on reaching for example "knowledge of equanimity about formations" which is quite a lot to do, and I am sure even on 5% of the way to this stage, one would not give such speculations even a single time a chance. They (toughts about it) even would not let one start to strive for such a state.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
whynotme
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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Post by whynotme »

I find it is a bit funny that now, under the current Buddha sasana, people started worshiping future Buddha. Then maybe in future, under the Maitreya's teaching then they will worship another future Buddha. They try to catch the train but miss it every time it arrives :mrgreen:

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Tom
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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Post by Tom »

tiltbillings wrote: and he also possesses a unique familiarity with the intricacies of the path not shared by his disciples.
So would this mean that this "unique familiarity with the intricacies of the path" is not available to those who attain arahantship?
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tiltbillings
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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Post by tiltbillings »

ccharles wrote:
tiltbillings wrote: and he also possesses a unique familiarity with the intricacies of the path not shared by his disciples.
So would this mean that this "unique familiarity with the intricacies of the path" is not available to those who attain arahantship?
I suppose the point here is that given the very long time, life after life, spent cultivating the paramis, the perfections, the Buddha knows things related to awakening better than anyone else.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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