Dream World v Real World!

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths. What can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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DAWN
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Re: Dream World v Real World!

Post by DAWN » Sun Sep 09, 2012 3:02 pm

Scietifics said that dream is like difragmentation of memory.

It means that events of the day is reorganised in memory. This triage activity create some electric activity, and this electric activity is recognised by the consciousness and show us all kind of images of our life who seems fluently comes from one to enother... :juggling: :zzz:

So dream is just a dream.
The is no any kind of divine messages about truth, or some kind of future knowing etc.
But anywere, if a dream becomes true, it's not because the dream was true, but is beacause our mind BELIEAVE that it's true, and when our mind is sure about some dhamma, this dhamma, this fnomena becomes "true", comes to dreamer in "real" life.

Somebody said somethink like that:
We must be carefull baut our dreams, them can become true.
Sabbe dhamma anatta
We are not concurents...
I'am sorry for my english

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Magoo
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Re: Dream World v Real World!

Post by Magoo » Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:52 am

Sam Vara wrote:
Magoo wrote:
ground wrote: When there is this then that will arise.
:sage:
Just to add to this and something that I have only just read that Ajahn Sumedho wrote and is very profound and that is that the above should read:

"When there is this, then this will arise." (rather than this and that) This difference is subtle but significant in my view.

With MeggaMetta
Eamonn
Hi,

could you give me the source for that, please?

Thanks.
I am reading Ajahn Sumedho's "Sound of Silence" and the quote is from within the book. Thats as much as I can offer at this point. Sorry, but I like it very much. It takes away opposites as the cause and effect is always continuous. So this happens and then this happens and then this happens and so on. I find if I say this and that, the 'that' makes it sound like the end, when infact the 'that" is the 'this' of the next phenomenon. Hard to explain but makes sense to me. Subtle but profound I think.

With MegaMetta
Eamonn

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equilibrium
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Re: Dream World v Real World!

Post by equilibrium » Mon Sep 10, 2012 10:18 am

DAWN wrote: So dream is just a dream.
The is no any kind of divine messages about truth, or some kind of future knowing etc.
emmm....so are you saying that the teaching of buddhism from Shakyamuni is false?.....and how do you know that? is this not a simple thought in ones mind? jumping to conclusions? is this not ignorance? and is there no knowing?....but the above appears that you do know?.....wow!..........then why are you here?.....searching for what?.....maybe one should try and understand oneself first!.....remember the sign above the door when Neo entered the room of the Oracle, it means "Know myself".......remember.....very relevant don't you think?

The question is an analogy and it must be understood.....it should not be taken literally.

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DAWN
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Re: Dream World v Real World!

Post by DAWN » Mon Sep 10, 2012 12:00 pm

equilibrium wrote:then why are you here?.....
:smile:
I'am waiting

PS I'am sorry if i make you anger, i dont have this kind of motivation. If i ever sayng somethink heretical, be compationate of me and my ignorance. We cant feel anger of an animal, cause he is ignorant, but we can feel compassionate of him.
Sabbe dhamma anatta
We are not concurents...
I'am sorry for my english

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equilibrium
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Re: Dream World v Real World!

Post by equilibrium » Mon Sep 10, 2012 8:53 pm

What are you waiting for? something interesting I hope?
We are all humans and we will encounter obstructions in this very life. We must be determined to break through these obstructions and motivations are the key.
Don't worry about feelings, they are just words, created by the mind, all just imaginations, there is nothing there.....don't be bounded by words.

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equilibrium
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Re: Dream World v Real World!

Post by equilibrium » Mon Sep 10, 2012 9:04 pm

Lets talk about dreams and consciousness as our next clue.....some very simply questions:
1. When you are dreaming, are you aware that you are dreaming?
2. when you are sleeping, are you aware that you are asleep?
3. When you die and get cremation, do you think you will be aware of the pain from the intense heat? if not, why not?
4. What is the difference between someone who is asleep and dead?

Can you see the differences?.....and how does consciousness relate to all this?

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DAWN
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Re: Dream World v Real World!

Post by DAWN » Tue Sep 11, 2012 3:25 am

equilibrium wrote:What are you waiting for? something interesting I hope?
We are all humans and we will encounter obstructions in this very life. We must be determined to break through these obstructions and motivations are the key.
Don't worry about feelings, they are just words, created by the mind, all just imaginations, there is nothing there.....don't be bounded by words.
I wainting for the death of my body, like all leaving being. So i waiting it here :roll:

"All is just imagination" - it's true. Dreams to.
1. When you are dreaming, are you aware that you are dreaming?
Not every time
2. when you are sleeping, are you aware that you are asleep?
Not everytime
3. When you die and get cremation, do you think you will be aware of the pain from the intense heat? if not, why not?
No, because brain will be death, there is no more contact between consciousness and body. No six base sense, no contact.
4. What is the difference between someone who is asleep and dead?
Brain. Asleep or death.
Sabbe dhamma anatta
We are not concurents...
I'am sorry for my english

pegembara
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Re: Dream World v Real World!

Post by pegembara » Tue Sep 11, 2012 4:21 am

Dwelling at Savatthi... Then Ven. Kaccayana Gotta approached the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down, sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to the Blessed One: "Lord, 'Right view, right view,' it is said. To what extent is there right view?"

"By & large, Kaccayana, this world is supported by (takes as its object) a polarity, that of existence & non-existence. But when one sees the origination of the world as it actually is with right discernment, 'non-existence' with reference to the world does not occur to one. When one sees the cessation of the world as it actually is with right discernment, 'existence' with reference to the world does not occur to one.

"By & large, Kaccayana, this world is in bondage to attachments, clingings (sustenances), & biases. But one such as this does not get involved with or cling to these attachments, clingings, fixations of awareness, biases, or obsessions; nor is he resolved on 'my self.' He has no uncertainty or doubt that just stress, when arising, is arising; stress, when passing away, is passing away. In this, his knowledge is independent of others. It's to this extent, Kaccayana, that there is right view.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.

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equilibrium
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Re: Dream World v Real World!

Post by equilibrium » Tue Sep 11, 2012 8:49 pm

Thank you for your responses DAWN.
emm.....waiting for death of my body?.....well, when we get to the end of this thread, hopefully you will realize that there is no such a thing as death.

1. When we are dreaming, we are not usually aware of that we are actually in a dream. We only know that we have been dreaming when we actually wake up and realized that we had been dreaming.....this is exactly what the original statement intention is.

2. When one is sleeping, deeply in asleep, one will not realize that he is actually sleeping, he is not aware he is sleeping and its surroundings.

3. When one dies and get cremated, one will not be able to feel the intense heat.....no consciousness.

4. The difference between someone who is asleep and dead is alive and dead and that both are not conscious.

Consciousness is very important here hence consciousness defines who we are and "NOT" the body and mind. (more on this consciousness later)

So far, what has been presented are those related towards the "Dream World". This is the last clue.....the phase "The Awaken One" are on many Suttras.....this is at the end of the path.....why do you think this is on the suttras and what is the meaning of this in relation to the statement.....is it coincidence? why do they call it the awakened one?

Anyone wishes to add more arguments towards the "Dream World"......please feel free.

Soon will be the arguments for the "Real World".....well, that one is easy is it not?.....anyone?

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kirk5a
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Re: Dream World v Real World!

Post by kirk5a » Tue Sep 11, 2012 10:19 pm

equilibrium wrote:Consciousness is very important here hence consciousness defines who we are and "NOT" the body and mind. (more on this consciousness later)
I will be looking forward to how you explain the following, with regard to what you say above:
"Any consciousness whatsoever that is past, future, or present; internal or external; blatant or subtle; common or sublime; far or near: every consciousness is to be seen as it actually is with right discernment as: 'This is not mine. This is not my self. This is not what I am.'
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

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Magoo
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Re: Dream World v Real World!

Post by Magoo » Tue Sep 11, 2012 11:49 pm

I can only speak from my experience. When I am asleep, if I hear a loud noise I will wake up. If someone was to put under my nose something that smelt very strong, I would wake up. If I became cold, I would wake up. Therefore in some subtle way, my hearing consciousness, my smell consciousness and my touch consciousness must exist in some way, even when asleep?

This is my thoughts anyway.

With MegaMetta
Eamonn

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DAWN
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Re: Dream World v Real World!

Post by DAWN » Wed Sep 12, 2012 3:25 am

equilibrium wrote: emm.....waiting for death of my body?.....well, when we get to the end of this thread, hopefully you will realize that there is no such a thing as death.
This is why i'am waiting for. Because actualy i dont remember death, i dont know what heppens when the body die, so, to experiance it, and to know by myself, i'am waiting for it.
I you are alrady die, and can tell about it some details, i would like to listening to you, but anyway, i will waiting fo my own death for nedt hear it, but know it, or dont-know it.
Actualy death is the most important question of the life.
Consciousness is very important here hence consciousness defines who we are and "NOT" the body and mind. (more on this consciousness later)
Not conciousness, but memory about this consciousness that definies our personality.
If there is no brain to remember all concsients moments, so there is no ego.
If thee is no memory there is no dream

When a good prectitioner lives all time in the present moment, have a full consciousness, he dont have any more any memory, so he have not any dream about present life

Why you have a such attachement to the dream world? Or i dont fully understand your position? Whant is your position? :embarassed:
Sabbe dhamma anatta
We are not concurents...
I'am sorry for my english

pegembara
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Re: Dream World v Real World!

Post by pegembara » Wed Sep 12, 2012 3:34 am

equilibrium wrote:
Consciousness is very important here hence consciousness defines who we are and "NOT" the body and mind. (more on this consciousness later)

Which consciousness are you referring to? Is there a consciousness apart from body (eye, ear, nose, tongue, tactile) and mind (intellect)?
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.

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DAWN
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Re: Dream World v Real World!

Post by DAWN » Wed Sep 12, 2012 3:41 am

Magoo wrote:I can only speak from my experience. When I am asleep, if I hear a loud noise I will wake up. If someone was to put under my nose something that smelt very strong, I would wake up. If I became cold, I would wake up. Therefore in some subtle way, my hearing consciousness, my smell consciousness and my touch consciousness must exist in some way, even when asleep?

This is my thoughts anyway.

With MegaMetta
Eamonn
There is SN 14.1-10
About Elements
Eye elements, body elements etc. It's may be halpfull :namaste:

http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pit ... ggo-e.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Sabbe dhamma anatta
We are not concurents...
I'am sorry for my english

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equilibrium
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Re: Dream World v Real World!

Post by equilibrium » Fri Sep 14, 2012 4:40 pm

kirk5a wrote:
equilibrium wrote:Consciousness is very important here hence consciousness defines who we are and "NOT" the body and mind. (more on this consciousness later)
I will be looking forward to how you explain the following, with regard to what you say above:
"Any consciousness whatsoever that is past, future, or present; internal or external; blatant or subtle; common or sublime; far or near: every consciousness is to be seen as it actually is with right discernment as: 'This is not mine. This is not my self. This is not what I am.'
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
That will be towards the end of this thread, maybe you can join us then.

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