I was wondering about the following: the robes of monks are made for climates like those found in Thailand. How do monks in more moderate climates deal with the winter when snow is falling and such?
Is something extra allowed? I don't find anything helpful on this in the Patimokkha. Although they mention out-of-season robes and blankets
How do monks deal with their robes in the winter?
How do monks deal with their robes in the winter?
Suffering is asking from life what it can never give you.
If you see any unskillful speech (or other action) from me let me know, so I can learn from it.mindfulness, bliss and beyond (page 8) wrote:Do not linger on the past. Do not keep carrying around coffins full of dead moments
- LonesomeYogurt
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Re: How do monks deal with their robes in the winter?
I visited a Thai monastery up in Northern Washington, where it can get quite cold. Most just wore thick shirts underneath, along with caps and wool socks. I'm not sure if this is appropriate in Vinaya terms, but it is the common practice I think.
Gain and loss, status and disgrace,
censure and praise, pleasure and pain:
these conditions among human beings are inconstant,
impermanent, subject to change.
Knowing this, the wise person, mindful,
ponders these changing conditions.
Desirable things don’t charm the mind,
undesirable ones bring no resistance.
His welcoming and rebelling are scattered,
gone to their end,
do not exist.
- Lokavipatti Sutta
Stuff I write about things.
censure and praise, pleasure and pain:
these conditions among human beings are inconstant,
impermanent, subject to change.
Knowing this, the wise person, mindful,
ponders these changing conditions.
Desirable things don’t charm the mind,
undesirable ones bring no resistance.
His welcoming and rebelling are scattered,
gone to their end,
do not exist.
- Lokavipatti Sutta
Stuff I write about things.
Re: How do monks deal with their robes in the winter?
Ah, thank you. I couldn't imagine them just not having done something like that.LonesomeYogurt wrote:I visited a Thai monastery up in Northern Washington, where it can get quite cold. Most just wore thick shirts underneath, along with caps and wool socks. I'm not sure if this is appropriate in Vinaya terms, but it is the common practice I think.
After some searching I found a passage in the following page:
So I think it is appropriate.http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/ariyesako/layguide.html wrote:Already during His lifetime, the Buddha made special allowances for different regions (or desa) outside the 'Middle Country' of North India — where He lived and taught. These dealt with both the workings of the Community — for example, a smaller quorum for ordination is allowed in distant parts where there are fewer monks — and practical measures, such as special dispensation for footwear and bathing. (See EV,II,p.173) So there is a precedent for adapting to conditions, but this does not mean the abolishing of any rules
Suffering is asking from life what it can never give you.
If you see any unskillful speech (or other action) from me let me know, so I can learn from it.mindfulness, bliss and beyond (page 8) wrote:Do not linger on the past. Do not keep carrying around coffins full of dead moments
Re: How do monks deal with their robes in the winter?
I've seen a monk wearing a hoodie. It was awesome. Can't see it being a Vinaya issue, especially considering the monk that was wearing it, but who knows.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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Re: How do monks deal with their robes in the winter?
At cold-weather monasteries I know about, they use "The Great Standards"
They wear lots of thermals, and thicker robes, and boots, and finally enormous saffron-coloured down jackets when they are outside.
Meanwhile, at Dhammapala Kloster in Switzerland, Ajahn Thiradhammo says they didn't want to wear any non-monk clothing, so they experimented with different but still allowable materials for their traditional robes... thick fleecy synthetics, merino wool, etc, but they decided they were too bulky to be practical.
However I understand that Dhammayut monks are quite strict, and even in the west they do not allow such things, they stay very basic and thus have a lot of trouble living in cold climates.
They wear lots of thermals, and thicker robes, and boots, and finally enormous saffron-coloured down jackets when they are outside.
Meanwhile, at Dhammapala Kloster in Switzerland, Ajahn Thiradhammo says they didn't want to wear any non-monk clothing, so they experimented with different but still allowable materials for their traditional robes... thick fleecy synthetics, merino wool, etc, but they decided they were too bulky to be practical.
However I understand that Dhammayut monks are quite strict, and even in the west they do not allow such things, they stay very basic and thus have a lot of trouble living in cold climates.
The Great Standards
The Lord Buddha also left us a set of principles that can still be used as a standard to judge new circumstances. These are known as 'The Great Standards.' Properly used they should protect against a wholesale dilution of the Rule.
This is how the Great Standards are formulated:
"Bhikkhus, whatever I have not objected to, saying, 'This is not allowable,' if it fits in with what is not allowable, if it goes against what is allowable, that is not allowable for you.
"Whatever I have not objected to, saying, 'This is not allowable,' if it fits in with what is allowable, if it goes against what is not allowable, that is allowable for you.
"And whatever I have not permitted, saying, 'This is allowable,' if it fits in with what is not allowable, if it goes against what is allowable, that is not allowable for you.
"And whatever I have not permitted, saying, 'This is allowable,' if it fits in with what is allowable, if it goes against what is not allowable, that is allowable for you." (BMC p.27; see also EV, II, p170)
◊ Treated with care, these Great Standards should enable bhikkhus to live according to the Vinaya Rule in, for example, isolated communities in non-Buddhist countries with non-tropical climates. They form a touchstone for modern conditions and substances.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... tml#modern" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Then,
saturated with joy,
you will put an end to suffering and stress.
SN 9.11
saturated with joy,
you will put an end to suffering and stress.
SN 9.11
Re: How do monks deal with their robes in the winter?
Maybe the question is wrong directed. It might be maybe better to ask: "(How better why) does one in robes deal with winter?"Ytrog wrote:I was wondering about the following: the robes of monks are made for climates like those found in Thailand. How do monks in more moderate climates deal with the winter when snow is falling and such?
Is something extra allowed? I don't find anything helpful on this in the Patimokkha. Although they mention out-of-season robes and blankets
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html
BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html
BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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Re: How do monks deal with their robes in the winter?
They are not limited to three robes alone, the three robes are the minimum they need.
they are allowed extra material which is determined for specific things and it is usual to see monks in the UK with jumpers or a karate type jacket on.
Edit - Bhikkhus are not to wear lay clothes so it would depend on what is considered lay clothes, and if a compromise could be met to cater for the need for extra warmth/dryness.
they are allowed extra material which is determined for specific things and it is usual to see monks in the UK with jumpers or a karate type jacket on.
Edit - Bhikkhus are not to wear lay clothes so it would depend on what is considered lay clothes, and if a compromise could be met to cater for the need for extra warmth/dryness.
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.
He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
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Re: How do monks deal with their robes in the winter?
Robes (in Thailand, anyway) can be obtained that are made with heavier/thicker material...
- LonesomeYogurt
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Re: How do monks deal with their robes in the winter?
Isn't the possession of two sets of robes nissaggiya pacittiya?Cittasanto wrote:They are not limited to three robes alone, the three robes are the minimum they need.
Gain and loss, status and disgrace,
censure and praise, pleasure and pain:
these conditions among human beings are inconstant,
impermanent, subject to change.
Knowing this, the wise person, mindful,
ponders these changing conditions.
Desirable things don’t charm the mind,
undesirable ones bring no resistance.
His welcoming and rebelling are scattered,
gone to their end,
do not exist.
- Lokavipatti Sutta
Stuff I write about things.
censure and praise, pleasure and pain:
these conditions among human beings are inconstant,
impermanent, subject to change.
Knowing this, the wise person, mindful,
ponders these changing conditions.
Desirable things don’t charm the mind,
undesirable ones bring no resistance.
His welcoming and rebelling are scattered,
gone to their end,
do not exist.
- Lokavipatti Sutta
Stuff I write about things.
Re: How do monks deal with their robes in the winter?
Here is a good overview of how the Buddhist monks' and nuns' robes developed historically and as Buddhism spread to colder climates:
http://buddhism.about.com/od/thefirstbu ... /robes.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/bud ... be_txt.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/bud ... e_pics.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Wearing only the three robes and nothing else is a special ascetic (dhutanga) practice. More robes can be determined as "accessory cloth" which is what most Theravada monks now do.
In colder climates, you really need to have some cloth close to your skin to keep the warmth inside, so woolly jumpers and sweaters and fleece jackets and warm underwear have been used by monks.
Here you can see some photos of Thai monks in Norway:
http://watthainorway.no/Artikler/bilder/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://buddhism.about.com/od/thefirstbu ... /robes.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/bud ... be_txt.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/bud ... e_pics.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Wearing only the three robes and nothing else is a special ascetic (dhutanga) practice. More robes can be determined as "accessory cloth" which is what most Theravada monks now do.
In colder climates, you really need to have some cloth close to your skin to keep the warmth inside, so woolly jumpers and sweaters and fleece jackets and warm underwear have been used by monks.
Here you can see some photos of Thai monks in Norway:
http://watthainorway.no/Artikler/bilder/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Bhikkhu Gavesako
Kiṃkusalagavesī anuttaraṃ santivarapadaṃ pariyesamāno... (MN 26)
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Kiṃkusalagavesī anuttaraṃ santivarapadaṃ pariyesamāno... (MN 26)
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- Cittasanto
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Re: How do monks deal with their robes in the winter?
The three robes being determined as the uttarasanga, antaravasaka and sanghati and other cloth requisites are not these, if the become determined as one of these they need relinquished before the 10th day (if memory serves) but they are not limited to only the three robes.LonesomeYogurt wrote:Isn't the possession of two sets of robes nissaggiya pacittiya?Cittasanto wrote:They are not limited to three robes alone, the three robes are the minimum they need.
have a look for extra cloth requisites in the BMC
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.
He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
Re: How do monks deal with their robes in the winter?
Thank you all for the information.
Bhante, how do you deal with it yourself? You aren't exactly living in the hottest climate
Bhante, how do you deal with it yourself? You aren't exactly living in the hottest climate
Suffering is asking from life what it can never give you.
If you see any unskillful speech (or other action) from me let me know, so I can learn from it.mindfulness, bliss and beyond (page 8) wrote:Do not linger on the past. Do not keep carrying around coffins full of dead moments
Re: How do monks deal with their robes in the winter?
It is not a problem wearing lots of extra clothing on one's body, but it does not feel so comfortable especially for meditation. I heard that in Canada, they build the kutis so large that one can do walking meditation inside (being warmed by the wood fire). That sounds like a good idea for cold climates.
Bhikkhu Gavesako
Kiṃkusalagavesī anuttaraṃ santivarapadaṃ pariyesamāno... (MN 26)
Access to Insight - Theravada texts
Ancient Buddhist Texts - Translations and history of Pali texts
Dhammatalks.org - Sutta translations
Kiṃkusalagavesī anuttaraṃ santivarapadaṃ pariyesamāno... (MN 26)
Access to Insight - Theravada texts
Ancient Buddhist Texts - Translations and history of Pali texts
Dhammatalks.org - Sutta translations
Re: How do monks deal with their robes in the winter?
Hope I'm not too off-topic, but supposedly studies have been performed on Tibetan monks doing tummo that have supposedly scientifically shown that they can raise their body temperatures. Is there a similar practice found in the Theravada community?
Last edited by Tom on Mon Aug 12, 2013 7:32 am, edited 2 times in total.
Re: How do monks deal with their robes in the winter?
In SE Asian Theravadan countries, it would be more useful to lower one's body temperature in the heat of the day. And I heard of some monks using the wind element kasina practice (focusing on the wind sensations at the nostrils) in order to produce a cool feeling in their body.
Bhikkhu Gavesako
Kiṃkusalagavesī anuttaraṃ santivarapadaṃ pariyesamāno... (MN 26)
Access to Insight - Theravada texts
Ancient Buddhist Texts - Translations and history of Pali texts
Dhammatalks.org - Sutta translations
Kiṃkusalagavesī anuttaraṃ santivarapadaṃ pariyesamāno... (MN 26)
Access to Insight - Theravada texts
Ancient Buddhist Texts - Translations and history of Pali texts
Dhammatalks.org - Sutta translations