Having a relative/ friend who is Sotapanna

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Parth
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Re: Having a relative/ friend who is Sotapanna

Post by Parth »

santa100 wrote:Too much merit could be a dangerous thing. The suttas mentioned that a deva who enjoys all the luxury and comfort in their heavenly world wouldn't tend to see the necessity and the urgency for Dhamma practice. A more important question is that given all the merits that you have, what are you gonna do with them? If one doesn't learn and practice the Buddha's teaching, s/he could have merits the size of mount Meru and they wouldn't do a thing to help delivering one from samsara..
Lack of merits are equally if not more dangerous. Being able to learn dhamma and vipassana also needs merits. Thinking that merit accumulation is bad is alarmingly strange view. Yes Metta bhavna is very very good and can be done while doing Dana as well. both are not mutually exclusive.

Metta

Parth
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DAWN
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Re: Having a relative/ friend who is Sotapanna

Post by DAWN »

To obtain a "Buddha machine"
we must take 1 sotapanna and 1 layman
when layman offer food to sotapanna, sotapanna offer the same food to lay man, after, layman offer again to sotapanna, and sotapanna retourn it to layman... Until they will librated :toast:

But seriosly:

Mind is like a mirrow. Ariya have a clear and smooth mirrow, also his mind is concentrated, so if you do somethink to Ariya, its will be reflect exacltly, and will be multiplied by thousand millions, like a sun light becomes a fire if we focused it by lens.

The food is the form 1
The mind of layman is like (+)1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8-9 or (-)1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8-9 [depending on the mativation, egoistic creative/destructive motivation is +/-1, altruistic creative/destructive motivation is +/-9], he identify himself with the form, he dont know his true nature of 0 (zero), so he is just 1-9, and he multiply all form by his mind 1-9, actualy a food
The Ariya is like 10, he have 0 of clear mind but 1-9 of form (body) that still here, so he is like 10-90.

When a layman-9 offer food-1 to sotapanna-10, he offer his 1x9 of food to 1 of body's sotapanna , but sotapanna have his realisation of 0, and so, by offering a food to sotapanna's body, lay man obtain 1x9x10 of merit, and not 1x9x1 if this offering is made to an animal for example.

So his food 1 will be multiplyed by 90, and will be returned to him like 90

Of corse is not exactly like that, but the mechanism is here.



A Heart Released
The Teachings of Phra Ajaan Mun Bhuridatta Thera
§15. The nine abodes of living beings.

The realms of the heavenly beings, the human realm, and the realms of destitution (apaya) are classed as the sensual realm, the abode of living beings who indulge in sensuality. Taken together, they count as one. The realms of form, the abodes of living beings who have attained rupa jhana, are four. The realms of formlessness, the abodes of living beings who have attained arupa jhana, are also four. So altogether there are nine abodes for living beings. Those — the arahants — who are wise to the nine abodes leave them and don't have to live in any of them. This appears in the last of the Novice's Questions (samanera-panha), 'dasa nama kim' — What is ten? — which is answered. 'dasahangehi samaññagato arahati vuccati ti' — The arahant, one who is endowed with ten qualities, gains release from the nine abodes of living beings. This can be compared to writing the numerals 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10. 1 to 9 are numbers that can be counted, named, added, subtracted, multiplied, and divided. As for ten — 1 and 0 (zero) — when we erase the 1, because it's a repetition, we are left with 0 (zero). If we use 0 to add, subtract, multiply, or divide with any other number, it won't increase the value of that number; and 0 by itself has no value at all — but you can't say that it doesn't exist, because there it is. The same is true with the heart: It's a nature whose attributes are like 0. When 0 is connected to any other number, it greatly increases the value of that number. For instance, 1 connected with 0 becomes 10. So it is with the heart. When connected with anything, it instantly proliferates into things elaborate and fantastic. But when trained until it is wise and discerning with regard to all knowable phenomena, it returns to its state as 0 (zero) — empty, open, and clear, beyond all counting and naming. It doesn't stay in the nine places that are abodes for living beings. Instead, it stays in a place devoid of supposing and formulation: its inherent nature as 0 (zero), or activityless-ness, as mentioned in § 14.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/thai ... eased.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Sabbe dhamma anatta
We are not concurents...
I'am sorry for my english
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Hanzze
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Re: Having a relative/ friend who is Sotapanna

Post by Hanzze »

I guess in general it is not easy if not even impossible for an ordinary person to recognice a noble person. It might be different if a person has entered the state of the 1. person on the 4 pairs (someone who really strives -or is on the way - for/to the first fruit).

Generally personal Dana is mostly more contraproductive (Dana means learning letting go!) as we are mostly very attached to make "good" things rather that to practice letting go.

The Dana - section in "Abhidhamma in Daily Life" by Ashin Janakabhivamsa might be a useful spring for a good unerstanding of Dana.

Back to the sutta, that might have given an inspiration of this ideas in the OP, it's not so much about that there have been no worthy receiver, but that there very next and more important steps are much more of value:
About Velāma

On one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Sāvatthī in Jeta's Grove, Anāthapiṇḍika's monastery. Then Anāthapiṇḍika the householder went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, bowed down to him and sat to one side. As he was sitting there, the Blessed One said to him, "Householder, are gifts still given in your family?"

"Gifts are still given in my family, lord, but they are coarse: broken rice cooked with bran, accompanied by pickle brine."[1]

"Householder, regardless of whether a gift is coarse or refined, if it is given inattentively, disrespectfully, not with one's own hand, as if throwing it away, with the view that nothing will come of it: Wherever the result of that gift comes to fruition, one's mind will not incline to the enjoyment of splendid food, will not incline to the enjoyment of splendid clothing, will not incline to the enjoyment of splendid vehicles, will not incline to the enjoyment of the splendid five strings of sensuality. And one's sons & daughters, slaves, servants, & workers will not listen to one, will not lend ear, will not make their minds attend for the sake of knowledge. Why is that? Because that is the result of inattentive actions.

"Householder, regardless of whether a gift is coarse or refined, if it is given attentively, respectfully, with one's own hand, not as if throwing it away, with the view that something will come of it: Wherever the result of that gift comes to fruition, one's mind will incline to the enjoyment of splendid food, will incline to the enjoyment of splendid clothing, will incline to the enjoyment of splendid vehicles, will incline to the enjoyment of the splendid five strings of sensuality. And one's sons & daughters, slaves, servants, & workers will listen to one, will lend ear, will make their minds attend for the sake of knowledge. Why is that? Because that is the result of attentive actions.

"Once, householder, there was a brahman named Velāma. And this was the nature of the gift, the great gift, he gave: He gave 84,000 gold trays filled with silver, 84,000 silver trays filled with gold, 84,000 copper trays filled with gems. He gave 84,000 elephants with gold ornaments, gold banners, covered with nets of gold thread. He gave 84,000 chariots spread with lion skins, tiger skins, leopard skins, saffron-colored blankets, with gold ornaments, gold banners, covered with nets of gold thread. He gave 84,000 milk cows with tethers of fine jute and copper milk pails. He gave 84,000 maidens adorned with jeweled earrings. He gave 84,000 couches spread with long-fleeced coverlets, white wool coverlets, embroidered coverlets, rugs of kadali-deer hide, each with a canopy above & red cushions on either side. He gave 84,000 lengths of cloth — of finest linen, of finest cotton, of finest silk.[2] To say nothing of the food & drink, staple & non-staple food, lotions & beddings: They flowed, as it were, like rivers.

"Now, householder, if the thought should occur to you, 'Perhaps it was someone else who at that time was Velāma the brahman, who gave that gift, that great gift,' that's not how it should be seen. I was Velāma the brahman at that time. I gave that gift, that great gift. But in that gift there was no one worthy of offerings; no one purified that gift.

"If one were to feed one person consummate in view, that would be more fruitful than the gift, the great gift, that Velāma the brahman gave.

"If one were to feed one once-returner, that would be more fruitful than the gift, the great gift, that Velāma the brahman gave, and if [in addition to that] one were to feed one person consummate in view, and to feed 100 people consummate in view.

"If one were to feed one non-returner, that would be more fruitful than... if one were to feed 100 once-returners.

"If one were to feed one arahant, that would be more fruitful than... if one were to feed 100 non-returners.

"If one were to feed one Private Buddha, that would be more fruitful than... if one were to feed 100 arahants.

"If one were to feed one Tathagata — a worthy one, rightly self-awakened — that would be more fruitful than... if one were to feed 100 Private Buddhas.

"If one were to feed a community of monks headed by the Buddha, that would be more fruitful than... if one were to feed a Tathagata — a worthy one, rightly self-awakened.

"If one were to have a dwelling built and dedicated to the Community of the four directions, that would be more fruitful than... if one were to feed a community of monks headed by the Buddha.

"If one with a confident mind were to go to the Buddha, Dhamma, & Sangha for refuge, that would be more fruitful than... if one were to have a dwelling built and dedicated to the Community of the four directions.

"If one with a confident mind were to undertake the training rules — refraining from taking life, refraining from taking what is not given, refraining from illicit sex, refraining from lying, refraining from distilled & fermented drinks that cause heedlessness — that would be more fruitful than... if one with a confident mind were to go to the Buddha, Dhamma, & Sangha for refuge.

"If one were to develop even just one whiff of a heart of good will, that would be more fruitful than... if one with a confident mind were to undertake the training rules...

"If one were to develop even for just a finger-snap the perception of inconstancy, that would be more fruitful than the gift, the great gift, that Velāma the brahman gave, and [in addition to that] if one were to feed one person... 100 people consummate in view, and were to feed one once-returner... 100 once-returners, and were to feed one non-returner... 100 non-returners, and were to feed one arahant... 100 arahants, and were to feed one Private Buddha... 100 Private Buddhas, and were to feed a Tathagata — a worthy one, rightly self-awakened — and were to feed a community of monks headed by the Buddha, and were to have a dwelling built and dedicated to the Community of the four directions, and with a confident mind were to go to the Buddha, Dhamma, & Sangha for refuge, and with a confident mind were to undertake the training rules — refraining from taking life, refraining from taking what is not given, refraining from illicit sex, refraining from lying, refraining from distilled & fermented drinks that cause heedlessness — and were to develop even just one whiff of a heart of good will."
Also usefull might be Dana:
To reap the highest rewards, to whom should we give?

"Even if a person throws the rinsings of a bowl or a cup into a village pool or pond, thinking, 'May whatever animals live here feed on this,' that would be a source of merit, to say nothing of what is given to human beings. But I do say that what is given to a virtuous person is of great fruit, and not so much what is given to an unvirtuous person. And the virtuous person has abandoned five factors and is endowed with five.

"Which five has he abandoned? He has abandoned sensual desire... ill will... sloth & drowsiness... restlessness & anxiety... uncertainty. These are the five factors he has abandoned. And with which five is he endowed? He is endowed with the aggregate of virtue of one beyond training... the aggregate of concentration of one beyond training... the aggregate of discernment of one beyond training... the aggregate of release of one beyond training... the aggregate of knowledge & vision of release of one beyond training. These are the five factors with which he is endowed.

"I tell you: What is given to one who has abandoned these five factors and is endowed with these five, bears great fruit."

— AN 3.57

There are these eight individuals who are worthy of gifts, worthy of hospitality, worthy of offerings, worthy of reverential salutation, the unsurpassed field of merit for the world. Which eight?

The one who has entered the stream, the one who has entered upon the course for the realization of the fruit of stream-entry, the once-returner, the one who has entered upon the course for the realization of the fruit of once-returning, the non-returner, the one who has entered upon the course for the realization of the fruit of non-returning, the arahant, the one who has entered upon the course for arahantship

These are the eight individuals who are worthy of gifts, worthy of hospitality, worthy of offerings, worthy of reverential salutation, the unsurpassed field of merit for the world.

— AN 8.59
Of cause it would be very teacherous to try to make high Dana while keeping Silas especially if one would try to do so with his relative. :pig: very teaching!
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
Parth
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Re: Having a relative/ friend who is Sotapanna

Post by Parth »

Dear Hanzze,

Did not quite understand the meaning of your last sentence :"of course .......... Very teaching".

Also please understand the point here is not what somebody is doing for increasing his merit. The relatives may not even know if a person is a sotapanna and only out of genuine love, affection given to a son / daughter / relative or friend may be offering the gifts / food / clothing etc without any intention of increasing one's merits. However will these actions having been done with great love from say a father to son / daughter and the son / daughter being a rare virtuous person not lead to extraordinary merit for the father / mother / other friends or relatives.

Metta

Parth
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Hanzze
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Re: Having a relative/ friend who is Sotapanna

Post by Hanzze »

Dear Parth,

one aspect of meritiouse Dana is that it might be given to somebody who does not produce further kamma. That would not have "direct" effects for somebody who does unintentional so. The other aspect is that one is training in letting go. Letting go of ones possession will have direct impact on one self by doing so. If one is practising letting go, and unintentional supportes unvirtuose persons, it might lead to the produce of furthrt kamma. That would have "indirect" effects for somebody who does this unintentional.

Unintentional mostly means, not knowing, being not aware, and we know that moha has also its impacts. General there is nothing like accidently merits. Also love is mostly not a resource for gooing real good deeds. Love might be able to work till a point where giving and taking might find a balance, if love is generated in direction of all beings.

Maybe a parable might help: Supposed one loves a person (the Buddha for example) but does not know what he is about. He identifies him self with that person, projects him self in this person. His love, services and support would have nothing but selfish intentions (ragga character, which is very similar to the saddha character) and even he would love and act for the most holly "being" he would not gain any merits from it. Why is that so? Because his thoughts (view) is not right and out of the wrong view, his intentions are wrong. He/she acts out of moha or in that case it might be lobha (greed/love).

How ever, there are things every person and being is worthy to get: food, clothing, housing and medicin. One can not fail in sharing if needed by someone and one has a possibility to share (Attation: taking additional to share has no good effects).

A child is somebody who normaly learns, learing and study, even if it is not directly Dhamma but "just" general knowledge falls under the ten punna kiriyavatthu (meritious actions). So in supporting a child in the therms of needed (!!) so that it might continue his mertious deeds, is in any way from good effects (even it might be not form the best effect for the supporter, if his views, thoughts are selfish directed -> "May my child grow to a successfull person so that it will support me when I am old...").

How ever, it is always good and importand to look at ones own intentions what ever action is supported and let step by step go of our most misunderstood interpretations of what is good and what is not good. Intentions is kamma. The lesser self/other is involved, the better will be the effect. For all, even if not understood.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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DAWN
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Re: Having a relative/ friend who is Sotapanna

Post by DAWN »

PS: for info abour dana

SN 1.42
Kindada Sutta: A Giver of What
[A deva:]
A giver of what is a giver of strength?
A giver of what, a giver of beauty?
A giver of what, a giver of ease?
A giver of what, a giver of vision?
And who is a giver of everything?
Being asked, please explain this to me.

[The Buddha:]
A giver of food is a giver of strength.
A giver of clothes, a giver of beauty.
A giver of a vehicle, a giver of ease.
A giver of a lamp, a giver of vision.
And the one who gives a residence,
is the one who is a giver of everything.
But the one who teaches the Dhamma
is a giver of
the Deathless.
Sabbe dhamma anatta
We are not concurents...
I'am sorry for my english
Parth
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Re: Having a relative/ friend who is Sotapanna

Post by Parth »

Dear Hanzze,

Frankly have not been able to understand your point. I don't agree that a Dana given with moha does not produce results, it does but the effect is much lesser than one without any attachment ( which except for noble ones) don't think anyone else is capable of doing. I personally believe love is the key and as it gets directed towards more and more people it develops the person as well as creates more merit. But this going off topic slightly.

Regards

Parth
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Goofaholix
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Re: Having a relative/ friend who is Sotapanna

Post by Goofaholix »

parth wrote:I personally believe love is the key and as it gets directed towards more and more people it develops the person as well as creates more merit. But this going off topic slightly.
That's right, and if that's the case it shouldn't matter what level of attainment of the receiver. One doesn't sit down and calculate who to give to to get the most bang for your buck if one gives out of love one gives freely.
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
Parth
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Re: Having a relative/ friend who is Sotapanna

Post by Parth »

Goofaholix wrote:
parth wrote:I personally believe love is the key and as it gets directed towards more and more people it develops the person as well as creates more merit. But this going off topic slightly.
That's right, and if that's the case it shouldn't matter what level of attainment of the receiver. One doesn't sit down and calculate who to give to to get the most bang for your buck if one gives out of love one gives freely.
Deaf Goofaholix,

As per the story of velama Brahmin (on page 1) it does matter. This question I have asked from a perspective of cusrosity, one cannot will ones relatives /friends to be sotapanna or higher. But what if somebody is luckier !

regards

Parth
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Hanzze
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Re: Having a relative/ friend who is Sotapanna

Post by Hanzze »

parth wrote:Dear Hanzze,

Frankly have not been able to understand your point. I don't agree that a Dana given with moha does not produce results, it does but the effect is much lesser than one without any attachment ( which except for noble ones) don't think anyone else is capable of doing. I personally believe love is the key and as it gets directed towards more and more people it develops the person as well as creates more merit. But this going off topic slightly.

Regards

Parth
Dear Path,
just try it. It's very teaching. Just observe, keep in mind and compare periodical. If it is an experiment, you would not be angry or take it personal if things running out different. Just have to remember the first eppisode of Kung Fu Pandha. Love and hate is tricky wheel which needs each other to roll on.
But what if somebody is luckier !
Support him/her and try to learn from him/her. But don't fall into jelousy our even into the so loved and self-promoted idea of sacrify (that is nothing but selfish at least)!! Supporting the vitouse is always a field of merit. Over all, children are very good teacher, as they are not so much into perceptions and mostly to not hold the 5 kandhas that strong as people coming into age.

Here a little story related to the Mangala Sutta (To Look After Feed And Take Care Of The Wife And Children Is Most Blissful) by Ven. K. Gunaratana Thera
Speaking of family duty especially to a man who desires to bring up his children, the perfect model of his virtue, it is of grave importance for him to bring into consideration the following hints:
1. Keep him away from the grip of vices
2. Teach him the way of virtue
3. Train or help him to become skilful in a trade or profession
4. Get for him a suitable marriage
5. Hand over to him his inheritance

A child receives training from his parents. There are stages of training and this varies on certain period of his age where a gradual changeover, due to his growing intelligence will be imparted to him. From the age of one to five where such periods demands the care and love of a parent, the child must be given every sympathy encouragement and companionship of his parent. From the age of six to fifteen is the opportune time to administer a careful and strict control over his difficulty, direct him to proper conduct in life and still into him the earnestness of his labour. Where punishment is unavoidable at the time the child shows misconduct or disobedience, he must be treated in a manner stern enough to make him see the true light of his misdeeds. But from sixteen and up the child is big enough to be spared any punishment whatsoever. He needs the respect and advice of his parent, who has also to be a guide and friend to him.

Illustration:
There was once a hermit who was on his way to the hermitage. He met a young boy who, out of sheer mischief began to tease and rebuke him. The hermit paid no attention to his rudeness, but instead went up to his mother who stood nearby, and advised her to make use of the young plant that grew nearby as a means to punish her child for his mischievousness. The mother completely ignored the injunction of the hermit who then went his way.
Twenty years later the hermit happened to pass by the same route where he saw a man hanging from a tree while nearby the mother wept bitterly over her son’s mishap. The hermit drew near and said to the woman, “My good woman, you need not cry any more, for your son is dead. You have yourself to blame for his death now. On this very spot, twenty years ago and by this very tree, I adviced you to train and bring up your child as he should be. Through that very mischief left uncorrected, it leads him to what he is today, a total wrack of his useful life where he should be trained and guided against the vices that always beset the path of a young man.
one Sutta in addition regarding virtuose children :
Three types of sons & daughters

This was said by the Blessed One, said by the Arahant, so I have heard: "There are these three types of sons & daughters existing in the world. Which three? One of heightened birth, one of similar birth, one of lowered birth.

"And how is a son or daughter of heightened birth? There is the case where a son or daughter's parents have not gone to the Buddha for refuge, have not gone to the Dhamma for refuge, have not gone to the Sangha for refuge. They do not abstain from taking life, from stealing, from sexual misconduct, from false speech, from fermented & distilled liquors that cause heedlessness. They are unprincipled & evil by nature. However, their son or daughter has gone to the Buddha for refuge, has gone to the Dhamma for refuge, has gone to the Sangha for refuge. He/she abstains from taking life, from stealing, from sexual misconduct, from false speech, from fermented & distilled liquors that cause heedlessness. He/she is principled & admirable by nature. This is called a son or daughter of heightened birth.

"And how is a son or daughter of similar birth? There is the case where a son or daughter's parents have gone to the Buddha for refuge, have gone to the Dhamma for refuge, have gone to the Sangha for refuge. They abstain from taking life, from stealing, from sexual misconduct, from false speech, from fermented & distilled liquors that cause heedlessness. They are principled & admirable by nature. Their son or daughter has also gone to the Buddha for refuge, has gone to the Dhamma for refuge, has gone to the Sangha for refuge. He/she abstains from taking life, from stealing, from sexual misconduct, from false speech, from fermented & distilled liquors that cause heedlessness. He/she is principled & admirable by nature. This is called a son or daughter of similar birth.

"And how is a son or daughter of lowered birth? There is the case where a son or daughter's parents have gone to the Buddha for refuge, have gone to the Dhamma for refuge, have gone to the Sangha for refuge. They abstain from taking life, from stealing, from sexual misconduct, from false speech, from fermented & distilled liquors that cause heedlessness. They are principled & admirable by nature. However, their son or daughter has not gone to the Buddha for refuge, has not gone to the Dhamma for refuge, has not gone to the Sangha for refuge. He/she does not abstain from taking life, from stealing, from sexual misconduct, from false speech, from fermented & distilled liquors that cause heedlessness. He/she is unprincipled & evil by nature. This is called a son or daughter of lowered birth."

The wise hope for a child
of heightened or similar birth,
not for one of lowered birth,
a disgrace to the family.

These children in the world,
lay followers,
consummate in virtue, conviction; generous,
free from stinginess,
shine forth in any gathering
like the moon
when freed from a cloud.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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