What's at stake as the Dharma goes modern

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths. What can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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DAWN
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Re: What's at stake as the Dharma goes modern

Post by DAWN » Sun Sep 02, 2012 4:55 pm

Sam Vara wrote:
DAWN wrote:To Sam Vara:
It's true that tey dont understand that all fenomena,internal and external, all dhamma, is energy, and so is leaded by the same law that all other energy.
And it's a shame that peopels dont have the open mind
Scientists do understand that all phenomena are energy; but the problem posed by the original article is that they would not have a worldview which could accommodate the types of energy transformation which make Kamma important in Buddhism.
Kamma is the logic.
Kamma is chain of cause and effect, it's a logic chain, and this logic is used by scientifist to makes their experiances.

Perharps they dont understant kamma law, but kamma law is their job. That is called ignorance.
Sabbe dhamma anatta
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Sam Vara
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Re: What's at stake as the Dharma goes modern

Post by Sam Vara » Sun Sep 02, 2012 5:47 pm

Perharps they dont understant kamma law, but kamma law is their job. That is called ignorance.
Possibly so. But the fact that it is ignorance seems to support my initial suggestion that kamma is a "problematically religious" component which eludes the modern scientific worldview. The "immanent frame" which informs scientific enquiry steers it away from such matters.

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DAWN
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Re: What's at stake as the Dharma goes modern

Post by DAWN » Sun Sep 02, 2012 6:02 pm

Sam Vara wrote:
Perharps they dont understant kamma law, but kamma law is their job. That is called ignorance.
Possibly so. But the fact that it is ignorance seems to support my initial suggestion that kamma is a "problematically religious" component which eludes the modern scientific worldview. The "immanent frame" which informs scientific enquiry steers it away from such matters.
It's true.

Infact, this misunderstandind between science and religion is caused by attachement to name-and-form, kamma is logic, but cause it's named kamma, and cause it's named logic, cause peoples dont watch into interaction, dont watch the true nature of fenomena, but just his name-and-form, an misunderstanding arise.

All misunderstanding betwen science and religion is a great lesson of name-and-form attachement. The one who want to penetrate into this attachement, must to investigate it by taking dialogue between religion and science. :hug:
Sabbe dhamma anatta
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daverupa
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Re: What's at stake as the Dharma goes modern

Post by daverupa » Sun Sep 02, 2012 7:43 pm

Rebirth and paranormal jhana(-realms? this isn't terribly clear) are decent candidates. Kamma as well, but that changes depending on how the word gets used, though most people do seem to attach it to rebirth, leaving us with two topics of note.

And they comprise two of the longest threads on this site, as well as cropping up fairly often otherwise. Well, that's interesting...
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]

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Alex123
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Re: What's at stake as the Dharma goes modern

Post by Alex123 » Sun Sep 02, 2012 7:59 pm

Sam Vara wrote:
Perharps they dont understant kamma law, but kamma law is their job. That is called ignorance.
Possibly so. But the fact that it is ignorance seems to support my initial suggestion that kamma is a "problematically religious" component which eludes the modern scientific worldview. The "immanent frame" which informs scientific enquiry steers it away from such matters.
Kamma is what we believe in. You can't take it into a lab and measure it. Beyond events that occur we can't see kamma or its results. We just see physical, biological, chemical, social, psychological processes. There is no way we can be truly certain that misfortune that happened today was result of some bad kamma done Aeons ago. It is a belief not scientifically verifiable.
"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

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Re: What's at stake as the Dharma goes modern

Post by ancientbuddhism » Sun Sep 02, 2012 8:15 pm

daverupa wrote:Rebirth and paranormal jhana(-realms? this isn't terribly clear) are decent candidates. Kamma as well, but that changes depending on how the word gets used, though most people do seem to attach it to rebirth, leaving us with two topics of note.

And they comprise two of the longest threads on this site, as well as cropping up fairly often otherwise. Well, that's interesting...

"If he wants, he wields manifold supranormal powers. Having been one he becomes many; having been many he becomes one. He appears. He vanishes. He goes unimpeded through walls, ramparts, and mountains as if through space. He dives in and out of the earth as if it were water. He walks on water without sinking as if it were dry land. Sitting crosslegged he flies through the air like a winged bird. With his hand he touches and strokes even the sun and moon, so mighty and powerful. He exercises influence with his body even as far as the Brahma worlds. He can witness this for himself whenever there is an opening."

AN 5.28
I say, beware of all enterprises that require new clothes, and not rather a new wearer of clothes.” – Henry David Thoreau, Walden, 1854

Secure your own mask before assisting others. – NORTHWEST AIRLINES (Pre-Flight Instruction)

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DAWN
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Re: What's at stake as the Dharma goes modern

Post by DAWN » Sun Sep 02, 2012 8:22 pm

Alex123 wrote:
Sam Vara wrote:
Perharps they dont understant kamma law, but kamma law is their job. That is called ignorance.
Possibly so. But the fact that it is ignorance seems to support my initial suggestion that kamma is a "problematically religious" component which eludes the modern scientific worldview. The "immanent frame" which informs scientific enquiry steers it away from such matters.
Kamma is what we believe in. You can't take it into a lab and measure it. Beyond events that occur we can't see kamma or its results. We just see physical, biological, chemical, social, psychological processes. There is no way we can be truly certain that misfortune that happened today was result of some bad kamma done Aeons ago. It is a belief not scientifically verifiable.
'Mesure' it self use kamma, because it's compare before and after, cause and effect, so by mesuring kamma they will use kamma

'Just physical... etc... process' - is kamma. The word 'process' is kamma; becuse 'process' is a chain of causes and effects

When i take a ball, when i drop him, when he flyes, and when he fall down - i can see kamma process
When i take water, when i put it on the fire, when it's makes hot, and when its evaporate - i can see reberth

That is consern 'we can't see kamma or it's results' - the taught is material, you can try and see by yourself, and The Buddha approuved that our taught is material in Dhammapada 1 and 2. And quantum physics law approuved it to. If you can't see, it's not means that nobody can't see, it's means that you dont beleave that you can see, or yu never try to see that.

С уважением.
Sabbe dhamma anatta
We are not concurents...
I'am sorry for my english

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daverupa
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Re: What's at stake as the Dharma goes modern

Post by daverupa » Sun Sep 02, 2012 8:30 pm

manifold supranormal powers
Ah yes! Without being too cheeky, might we put the first two of the three knowledges in this category as well?
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]

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Sam Vara
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Re: What's at stake as the Dharma goes modern

Post by Sam Vara » Sun Sep 02, 2012 8:32 pm

Alex123
Kamma is what we believe in. You can't take it into a lab and measure it. Beyond events that occur we can't see kamma or its results. We just see physical, biological, chemical, social, psychological processes. There is no way we can be truly certain that misfortune that happened today was result of some bad kamma done Aeons ago. It is a belief not scientifically verifiable.
Yes, this is my point, and what the article is looking at. Enlightened beings aside, we do not have this knowledge. And as such, it is outside the scope of what science deals with. "What's at stake", as the title has it, is the possibility that a modern secular sensibility which values this stance will simply give up on the notion of Kamma. Stephen Batchelor, for example, appears to have taken this path, and there are many, albeit less eloquent, who accompany him.

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Re: What's at stake as the Dharma goes modern

Post by ancientbuddhism » Sun Sep 02, 2012 8:38 pm

With reference to Kamma and its function as intention, this fits easily with a present experience interpretation of DO. No conflict with science there.
I say, beware of all enterprises that require new clothes, and not rather a new wearer of clothes.” – Henry David Thoreau, Walden, 1854

Secure your own mask before assisting others. – NORTHWEST AIRLINES (Pre-Flight Instruction)

A Handful of Leaves

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Re: What's at stake as the Dharma goes modern

Post by Sam Vara » Sun Sep 02, 2012 8:51 pm

ancientbuddhism wrote:With reference to Kamma and its function as intention, this fits easily with a present experience interpretation of DO. No conflict with science there.
Indeed, but with reference to
"Here, student, some woman or man is one who harms beings with his hands or with clods or with sticks or with knives. Due to having performed and completed such kammas, on the dissolution of the body, after death, he reappears in a state of deprivation... If instead he comes to the human state, he is sickly wherever he is reborn. This is the way that leads to sickness, that is to say, to be one who harms beings with one's hands or with clods or with sticks or with knives.
the picture is rather different. But I don't think that Taylor would express this in terms of a conflict with science. It is not a matter of "Here is something that we believe, so let's look at whether it might be believed by a modern scientist". It is more that the philosophical underpinnings of science simply would not concern themselves with issues such as Kamma. There is, even with a present experience interpretation of DO, little that would serve as the basis for scientific enquiry.

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DAWN
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Re: What's at stake as the Dharma goes modern

Post by DAWN » Sun Sep 02, 2012 8:59 pm

I think that if we explaint to them what is realy means 'kamma' they will understand and agree that is somethink that is the law of nature
Sabbe dhamma anatta
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I'am sorry for my english

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Re: What's at stake as the Dharma goes modern

Post by Sam Vara » Sun Sep 02, 2012 9:13 pm

DAWN wrote:I think that if we explaint to them what is realy means 'kamma' they will understand and agree that is somethink that is the law of nature
I think that this is wildly optimistic. I would like to see a definition of Kamma that scientists would agree could be incorporated into a research proposal. In so far as scientists accept "laws of nature", they would probably (according to their particular discipline) collapse Kamma into one of the other niyama.

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Re: What's at stake as the Dharma goes modern

Post by Alex123 » Sun Sep 02, 2012 9:40 pm

Sam Vara wrote:Alex123
Kamma is what we believe in. You can't take it into a lab and measure it. Beyond events that occur we can't see kamma or its results. We just see physical, biological, chemical, social, psychological processes. There is no way we can be truly certain that misfortune that happened today was result of some bad kamma done Aeons ago. It is a belief not scientifically verifiable.
Yes, this is my point, and what the article is looking at. Enlightened beings aside, we do not have this knowledge. And as such, it is outside the scope of what science deals with. "What's at stake", as the title has it, is the possibility that a modern secular sensibility which values this stance will simply give up on the notion of Kamma. Stephen Batchelor, for example, appears to have taken this path, and there are many, albeit less eloquent, who accompany him.

But also the existence of "God who gives evidence contrary to his existence and existence of soul to test our faith" is not scientific either. We don't believe in this, yet believe in Kamma.
"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

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DAWN
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Re: What's at stake as the Dharma goes modern

Post by DAWN » Sun Sep 02, 2012 10:04 pm

Sam Vara wrote:
DAWN wrote:I think that if we explaint to them what is realy means 'kamma' they will understand and agree that is somethink that is the law of nature
I think that this is wildly optimistic. I would like to see a definition of Kamma that scientists would agree could be incorporated into a research proposal. In so far as scientists accept "laws of nature", they would probably (according to their particular discipline) collapse Kamma into one of the other niyama.
There is nothink to accept. The law of kamma is the chain of causes and effects, the problem is just that for a lot of peoples, and buddhist peoples to, kamma unckude soul, destiny, peronality, and other type of atta, and knowing that scientist dont accept atta, they dont accept kamma. It's a fruit of misunderstanding of true Dhamma about anatta of all dhamma.
Our body is no-self, its just some energy, our mind is not-self, is just some energy, and the nature of energy is anicca, anicca produсes energy.

Some scientist have a more right wiev about true nature of dhammas that some buddist them selves.

Scientifists will accept anatta and anicca (and so dukkha to).
Sabbe dhamma anatta
We are not concurents...
I'am sorry for my english

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