Having a relative/ friend who is Sotapanna

[Parth]

I remember having read somewhere that in one of the pregious births of Gautama Buddha, he kept on donating for several years to all who came to seek, further he states that all that Dana had a lesser merit than what would come of one time feeding / donating to a single sotapanna ( which he could not do at that point since the were no Ariyas existing in human world at that time).

Now my question is suppose somebody has a son/ daughter who becomes a sotapanna ( and continues to be a householder) in such a case would the parents / friends / other relatives of that person not gain extraordinary merit by virtue of offering food/ gifts/ other normal courtesies to that individual in normal course of life ( even if this individual does not disclose his attainments).

Metta

Parth

[manas]

I read once that we 'obtain merit' even just by throwing out scraps of food into the wild, with the thought "may any living beings who are able to, make use of this as food" or words to that effect. If feeding a human being, more 'merit'; and if feeding a saint, even more.

But personally, I prefer to think of searching out for the one in greatest need, rather than for 'how much merit I can make' for myself. Thus, if I saw a starving beggar child on one side of the road, and an already well-attended to sotapanna on the other, I would think to myself "well it looks as though the sotapanna already has enough to eat for today, so I will give this food to the starving child instead." I would actually be quite happy to sacrifice my 'extra merit points' in this way.

But as to your original question - the answer is yes, as I understand it. Even unknowingly feeding an ariya would have great benefit for the donor. Apparently the Universe makes distinctions like this. Can't argue with the Universe, I guess!

metta

[Goofaholix]

Now my question is suppose somebody has a son/ daughter who becomes a sotapanna ( and continues to be a householder) in such a case would the parents / friends / other relatives of that person not gain extraordinary merit by virtue of offering food/ gifts/ other normal courtesies to that individual in normal course of life ( even if this individual does not disclose his attainments).

You mean doing what parents / friends / other relatives normally do as parents / friends / other relatives?

[Parth]

Now my question is suppose somebody has a son/ daughter who becomes a sotapanna ( and continues to be a householder) in such a case would the parents / friends / other relatives of that person not gain extraordinary merit by virtue of offering food/ gifts/ other normal courtesies to that individual in normal course of life ( even if this individual does not disclose his attainments).

You mean doing what parents / friends / other relatives normally do as parents / friends / other relatives?

Yes, if the person concerned was still a child or a teenager he / she would still be dependant on his parents and later on as well take their hospitality from time to time. Going to friends / relatives place for lunch etc.

Regards

Parth

[Dan74]

Are you thinking of anyone in particular?

[Goofaholix]

Yes, if the person concerned was still a child or a teenager he / she would still be dependant on his parents and later on as well take their hospitality from time to time. Going to friends / relatives place for lunch etc.

Do you think such people do what they do for the merit? perhaps they love their child regardless of whether he/she is a sotapanna and that is more important don't you think?

[Parth]

Yes, if the person concerned was still a child or a teenager he / she would still be dependant on his parents and later on as well take their hospitality from time to time. Going to friends / relatives place for lunch etc.

Do you think such people do what they do for the merit? perhaps they love their child regardless of whether he/she is a sotapanna and that is more important don't you think?

Dear Goofaholix,

I never stated that the relatives and friends do it for merit, my question is ' even if the concerned individual does not disclose his attainments ( which he/ she will most probably not disclose) will his friends / relatives / parents generate extraordinary merit for themselves due to the offerings which they make to him / her in normal course of life.'

Regards

Parth

[acinteyyo]

Yes, if the person concerned was still a child or a teenager he / she would still be dependant on his parents and later on as well take their hospitality from time to time. Going to friends / relatives place for lunch etc.

Do you think such people do what they do for the merit? perhaps they love their child regardless of whether he/she is a sotapanna and that is more important don't you think?

Dear Goofaholix,

I never stated that the relatives and friends do it for merit, my question is ' even if the concerned individual does not disclose his attainments ( which he/ she will most probably not disclose) will his friends / relatives / parents generate extraordinary merit for themselves due to the offerings which they make to him / her in normal course of life.'

Regards

Parth

Hi,

I don't think that merit is distributed by "the universe" or anything else like that at all. Generating merit, in my opinion depends on intention, like everything else we do. A wholesome state of mind accompanied by right intentions performing wholesome actions will lead to beneficial or meritorious results. I don't think it matters much whether you unknowingly make offerings to somebody who is a sotāpanna or to any other living being as long as your intentions are genuine. To believe that making offerings to someone special would generate more merit than making offerings to someone "not so special" gives rise to a somewhat dangerous view of "beings with certain values". It is not about our "external actions" but about our inner attitude which generates meritorious results.

best wishes, acinteyyo

[kirk5a]

I don't think it matters much whether you unknowingly make offerings to somebody who is a sotāpanna or to any other living being as long as your intentions are genuine.

It can matter who the recipient is. That person acts also, and their actions might be reciprocal, depending on how generous they are, as well as their other qualities. That one might look for an opportunity to teach you the Dhamma. That is just one for-instance, there may be other ways in which it does in fact matter.

[whynotme]

Hi,

I don't think that merit is distributed by "the universe" or anything else like that at all. Generating merit, in my opinion depends on intention, like everything else we do. A wholesome state of mind accompanied by right intentions performing wholesome actions will lead to beneficial or meritorious results. I don't think it matters much whether you unknowingly make offerings to somebody who is a sotāpanna or to any other living being as long as your intentions are genuine. To believe that making offerings to someone special would generate more merit than making offerings to someone "not so special" gives rise to a somewhat dangerous view of "beings with certain values". It is not about our "external actions" but about our inner attitude which generates meritorious results.

best wishes, acinteyyo

Dear acinteyyo,

As for universe, I think manas meant natural law of kamma as the Buddha already found out, giving to sotapanna is much much more than giving to normal people. The result of actions, in general, depends on two factors, the one giving the action and the one receive the action. Killing hundreds men but still can attain arahanship later, in case of Ven. Angulimala, but just kill one arahant and no one can save you from hell. For a normal person, i.e a robber, how can you recognize an arahant? It is not fair if you are in a human court, but you cant argue with the law of kamma. If the food is poisoned, knowing or not, eating eat will make you die. And knowing a person an arahant or not, killing him is just that, un-save-able.

In one sutta the Buddha said that, for benefit, giving to normal people << sotapanna << sakadagami << anagami << arahant << pacceka buddha << sammasam buddha << a moment of practicing metta << a moment of practicing observing impermanence.
IIRC, it is thousands times smaller, i.e giving to a thousand arahants is smaller than giving just to a pacceka buddha and so on. Giving to a paceka buddha you can have several lives as king or billionaire or devas, but by practicing metta you can become brahma with comforts and life span much better than the best of human and devas. And by observing impermanence you can end it all.

Well, and in case I meet a hungry child and a sotapanna or similarities (arahant..), I will give it all to the sotapanna and let manas care for the child IMO, noble person is very rare, and life is unpredictable, what if he or I die that very day, then it means I just lost my lottery jackpot. No, I would not let it happen

Regards

[santa100]

For me, even between a hungry child and a healthy sammasambuddha, I'd definitely give to the hungry child without hesitation. I think this is what the Buddha really meant when He taught that the merit of giving to a sammasambuddha is still much less than a moment of practicing metta or contemplating impermanence..

[Parth]

For me, even between a hungry child and a healthy sammasambuddha, I'd definitely give to the hungry child without hesitation. I think this is what the Buddha really meant when He taught that the merit of giving to a sammasambuddha is still much less than a moment of practicing metta or contemplating impermanence..

Well, slightly on jocular side, why not give both !

But my original question was something different ! Will giving to a sotapanna who is a relative and householder in normal course of life still constitute an extraordinary merit ? In which case mata vishakha's parents / in laws would have been so fortunate since she attained sotapanna stage as a child.

Metta

Parth

[santa100]

If you have enough to give to both, then it wouldn't be a problem to start out with right? Back to your original question, there's no doubt that one'd gain great merit by offering to a sotapanna, but according to the Buddha, that merit is only a grain of sand compared to a moment of practicing metta or contemplation on impermanence..

[whynotme]

For me, even between a hungry child and a healthy sammasambuddha, I'd definitely give to the hungry child without hesitation. I think this is what the Buddha really meant when He taught that the merit of giving to a sammasambuddha is still much less than a moment of practicing metta or contemplating impermanence..

Oh, your point is worthy. And it rises a thought on me, what if I give it to the buddha, after accept it, will he give back to the child? Will this strategy kill two bird with one meal? And in case if he give it back to the child, would the merit for me still be the same if he doesn't eat the food?

To be realistic, imagine you only have a pie, or an orange to offer, or just a cookie, it is very hard to give to both of them. And maybe you are just a traveler, just recently being converted to Buddhism and you meet the Buddha and a hungry child on the road, or you are a soldier on the way to the battlefield. It may be your last chance to meet them, which one you will give? And the reason, why?

@ parth, I agree with santa and manas that giving to sotapannas bring great merit, and their parent/ relatives must done some good actions to have sons/daughters like that.

Regards

[santa100]

Too much merit could be a dangerous thing. The suttas mentioned that a deva who enjoys all the luxury and comfort in their heavenly world wouldn't tend to see the necessity and the urgency for Dhamma practice. A more important question is that given all the merits that you have, what are you gonna do with them? If one doesn't learn and practice the Buddha's teaching, s/he could have merits the size of mount Meru and they wouldn't do a thing to help delivering one from samsara..