Theravāda Sectarian Attitudes

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
whynotme
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Re: Theravāda Sectarian Attitudes

Post by whynotme »

suttametta wrote: You ad hom is duly noted. It's a common tactic for you. You are ignoring three suttas that describe nibbana as an eternal consciousness. So what of that?
Dear suttameta,

Could you point out what suttas describe nibbana as an eternal consciousness?

Regards
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suttametta
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Re: Theravāda Sectarian Attitudes

Post by suttametta »

whynotme wrote:
suttametta wrote: You ad hom is duly noted. It's a common tactic for you. You are ignoring three suttas that describe nibbana as an eternal consciousness. So what of that?
Dear suttameta,

Could you point out what suttas describe nibbana as an eternal consciousness?

Regards
Ajata Sutta
Kevatta Sutta
Brahma-nimantanika Sutta
daverupa
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Re: Theravāda Sectarian Attitudes

Post by daverupa »

suttametta wrote:Ajata Sutta
Kevatta Sutta
Brahma-nimantanika Sutta
Yes, you brought those up in this thread. Therein, anantam "boundless" is probably better than "infinite", given the problematic connotations of that latter term. Vinnana thus freed of greed, hatred, and delusion is truly unbound, boundless... but certainly not infinite in a temporal sense. Nibbana isn't a thing which lasts forever such that vinnana can forever contact it.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
whynotme
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Re: Theravāda Sectarian Attitudes

Post by whynotme »

suttametta wrote:
whynotme wrote:
suttametta wrote: You ad hom is duly noted. It's a common tactic for you. You are ignoring three suttas that describe nibbana as an eternal consciousness. So what of that?
Dear suttameta,

Could you point out what suttas describe nibbana as an eternal consciousness?

Regards
Ajata Sutta
Kevatta Sutta
Brahma-nimantanika Sutta
Many thanks,

I searched those suttas and your topic appeared. Ajata sutta is in khuddaka so I haven't read yet (and I don't put much faith in khuddaka) but I read those important things you noted in your topic. It doesn't clearly mean nibbana is eternal consciousness, and in that case, IMO, you should keep your mind open. It may be true as you said, but also may be other mean. IMO, you should keep your practice by follow simpler instructions (which is much clearer) and one day you will know for sure what those suttas really mean. Don't fall into the trap of using thinking or using reason to define nibbana

Regards

PS: Actually I still remember how many times I read Kevatta sutta because of that sentence. Maybe the most I've read, but I don't see its meaning clearly so I just let it go and hope someday I will see the meaning by my own eye
Last edited by whynotme on Wed Aug 22, 2012 6:49 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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suttametta
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Re: Theravāda Sectarian Attitudes

Post by suttametta »

daverupa wrote:
suttametta wrote:Ajata Sutta
Kevatta Sutta
Brahma-nimantanika Sutta
Yes, you brought those up in this thread. Therein, anantam "boundless" is probably better than "infinite", given the problematic connotations of that latter term. Vinnana thus freed of greed, hatred, and delusion is truly unbound, boundless... but certainly not infinite in a temporal sense. Nibbana isn't a thing which lasts forever such that vinnana can forever contact it.
You are entitled to your opinion. "Ananta," given it's usual meaning in Sanskrit and Pali straightforwardly means "infinite," "endless," "eternal," "unending..." "Boundless" should be read in this context to have both a temporal and spatial connotation just as all these other words do, especially in light of the the word "sabatto": "everywhere," "all-around," "in all respects," "through and through." In any event, "boundless," given its usual meaning satisfies all these meanings anyway.
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Re: Theravāda Sectarian Attitudes

Post by DNS »

suttametta wrote: a teacher whom I respect, Ven. Madawala Punnaji.
:thumbsup:

Ven. Punnaji on Nibbana:

• Nibbāna is not a “Presence” of something – it is an Absense
• We are speaking of withdrawal from a disastrous experience called “Dukkha”
• The gradual way to awaken from the dream of existence is the SUBLIME EIGHTFOLD WAY
• What is not mine is not my “SELF” (Anattā);
• This line of thinking is the awakening from the Dream of Existence.

http://bhantepunnaji.com/pdf/110328_EIGHTFOLDWAY.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
suttametta
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Re: Theravāda Sectarian Attitudes

Post by suttametta »

whynotme wrote:
suttametta wrote:
whynotme wrote: Dear suttameta,

Could you point out what suttas describe nibbana as an eternal consciousness?

Regards
Ajata Sutta
Kevatta Sutta
Brahma-nimantanika Sutta
Many thanks,

I searched those suttas and your topic appeared. Ajata sutta is in khuddaka so I haven't read yet (and I don't put much faith in khuddaka) but I read those important things you noted in your topic. It doesn't clearly mean nibbana is eternal consciousness, and in that case, IMO, you should keep your mind open. It may be true as you said, but also may be other mean. IMO, you should keep your practice by follow simpler instructions (which is much clearer) and one day you will know for sure what those suttas really mean. Don't fall into the trap of using thinking or using reason to define nibbana

Regards
I appreciate your concern. It is important to vet the meanings of the Buddha's sentences, as Buddha stated in the Mahaparinibbana Sutta.

Malcolm turned me on to Peter Harvey's "The Selfless Mind." It is an excellent treatment of just these issues. Please refer to section 12.3-6. In that passage, Harvey translates "anantaṃ" as "infinite." He also shows through passage citations that nibbana is not just an object of discernment (viññāna), but a discernment in itself. I would argue that "a discernment" is synonymous with consciousness. Typically in the suttas, "vi"+"ñāna" essentially means "to pick apart" attributes, i.e., attribution. The faculty doing this act is conscious, alive. What is being highlighted is that nibbana is nondual, where the featureless object of discernment is itself a featureless discerning faculty. I would also urge all readers that the tempting urge to distance Buddhism from all ontological categories has its limits. Nibbana is that limit. And while the ontics are notably large and vague, it does have its own nature to be discerned through the methods presented, rather than through argumentation. As for the argumentation, please refer to the suttas themselves. I would submit that the urge to create this ontic distance actually creates distance from one's realization of it. Clearly, Buddha does not avoid identifying nibbana's qualities.
suttametta
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Re: Theravāda Sectarian Attitudes

Post by suttametta »

David N. Snyder wrote:Ven. Punnaji on Nibbana:

• Nibbāna is not a “Presence” of something – it is an Absence
The absence of all things dukkha reveals the "pabham" shining vinnana of nibbana. So it cannot be a complete absence. Punnaji also calls it "immortality."
santa100
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Re: Theravāda Sectarian Attitudes

Post by santa100 »

suttametta wrote:
"Clearly, Buddha does not avoid identifying nibbana's qualities"

Nibbana is not a conditioned entity, thus it's free of all dualistic attributes. Although one could describe its qualities, the qualities themselves are not Nibbana. Just like fire has the quality of warmth and brightness and yet, warmth and brightness are not fire itself. That's why when it comes to describing Nibbana, the "apophasis" approach is employed. Apophasis means the use of negation statments to express an ineffable supramundane state that could only be "touched" by personal experience. We are still the fishes living underneath the deep ocean that are yet to have the firsthand glimpse of the sun. So, until then, we just have to trust the Buddha and His apophatic descriptions of Nibbana..
suttametta
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Re: Theravāda Sectarian Attitudes

Post by suttametta »

santa100 wrote:suttametta wrote:
"Clearly, Buddha does not avoid identifying nibbana's qualities"

Nibbana is not a conditioned entity, thus it's free of all dualistic attributes. Although one could describe its qualities, the qualities themselves are not Nibbana. Just like fire has the quality of warmth and brightness and yet, warmth and brightness are not fire itself. That's why when it comes to describing Nibbana, the "apophasis" approach is employed. Apophasis means the use of negation statments to express an ineffable supramundane state that could only be "touched" by personal experience. We are still the fishes living underneath the deep ocean that are yet to have the firsthand glimpse of the sun. So, until then, we just have to trust the Buddha and His apophatic descriptions of Nibbana..
Yes. There are definitely two ways to look at this matter.
mfesmith
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Re: Theravāda Sectarian Attitudes

Post by mfesmith »

suttametta wrote: I have patiently pointed out the faults in the reasoning belonging to both you and Malcolm.
No, actually, all you did was proffer a non-standard interpretation of a couple of passages in the Nikayas trying to prove that Buddha's experience of Nirvana was in line with Vedantic speculations about brahman while castigating Mahāyāna and Vajrāyāna for being adaptations of Vedism. As well as making a couple of grossly inaccurate statements, for example comparing the body of light with the realm of Abhassara devas; and asserting that Dzogchen was based on the principle of sabda brahma ala Bhartrihari, etc.

As for Peter Harvey's book, it is interesting in so far as it is gives support to an textual origin in the Nikayas concerning the Mahāyāna notion of Buddhahood being an unconditioned wisdom that is does not perish at the breakup of a buddha or an arhat's body. But as we see, there is plenty of room for disagreement and we see most Nikaya Buddhists asserting that nirvana is a total cessation of consciousness.

So, you on the one hand excorciate Mahāyāna, and on the other hand are not able to break free of your Mahāyāna imbued views of Buddhahood.

Ironic that.
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