Pali Canon

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Dhammakid
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Re: Pali Canon

Post by Dhammakid »

fig tree wrote:
Dhammakid wrote: And does anyone know which parts of the Tipitaka are and are not available on A2I?
I don't think there's any simple pattern to the choice of suttas for which people have contributed translations. You can see for yourself by checking the index at http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/index.html. If you follow the link for the Digha Nikaya, for example, you find that it has DN 2, 9, 11, 12, 15.... It says it doesn't have anything from the Abhidhamma yet.

Fig Tree
Thanks Fig Tree. I actually did end up checking myself and that's what I have found. If nothing else, A2I has the largest collection on the net. More than enough for me at the moment.

:namaste:
Dhammakid
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mikenz66
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Re: Pali Canon

Post by mikenz66 »

Dhammakid wrote: If nothing else, A2I has the largest collection on the net. More than enough for me at the moment.
Dhammakid
A2I actually appears quite selective to me, with a slant towards the Suttas that Ajahn Thanissaro considers useful.

Mettanet has is also incomplete, and lacks in commentary, but does have all of the MN, for example.
http://www.mettanet.org/tipitaka/index.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

However, for study I prefer books, particularly the work of Bhikkhu Bodhi.

Metta
Mike
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Cittasanto
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Re: Pali Canon

Post by Cittasanto »

mikenz66 wrote:
Dhammakid wrote: If nothing else, A2I has the largest collection on the net. More than enough for me at the moment.
Dhammakid
A2I actually appears quite selective to me, with a slant towards the Suttas that Ajahn Thanissaro considers useful.

Mettanet has is also incomplete, and lacks in commentary, but does have all of the MN, for example.
http://www.mettanet.org/tipitaka/index.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

However, for study I prefer books, particularly the work of Bhikkhu Bodhi.

Metta
Mike
well their is always http://tipitaka.wikia.com/wiki/Wikipitaka:About" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

and A2I is free Distribution not copyright so not bound by thanissaro but by who freely publishes or gives their work
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
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Dhammanando
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Re: Pali Canon

Post by Dhammanando »

Hi Mike,
mikenz66 wrote:Mettanet has is also incomplete, and lacks in commentary, but does have all of the MN, for example.
Yes, but the translations by Sister Uppalavannā are extremely bad. One would be well advised not to use them for anything more than getting a general sense of what a Sutta is about.

Best wishes,
Dhammanando Bhikkhu
Yena yena hi maññanti,
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.


In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
(Sn. 588)
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mikenz66
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Re: Pali Canon

Post by mikenz66 »

Manapa wrote: well their is always http://tipitaka.wikia.com/wiki/Wikipitaka:About" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Thanks for that. They seem to be mostly from A2I and Mettanet. It's strange that they don't always acknowledge the translators (e.g. Thanissaro Bhikkhu's from A2I) and have not reproduced all of the footnotes. Compare http://tipitaka.wikia.com/wiki/Mulapariyaya_Sutta" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; and http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Manapa wrote: and A2I is free Distribution not copyright so not bound by thanissaro but by who freely publishes or gives their work
While there are a number of translations by other authors, the vast majority there are by Ven. Thanissaro. I find it an extremely valuable resource and I find Ven. Thanissaro's translations and analysis very useful. However, the selection, the translations, and the analyses are from a particular point of view that is not always "Standard Theravada".

And as Ven Dhammanando points out, the Mettanet translations can also be problematical...

This is why I prefer to use, if at all possible, the translations by Scholars such as Ven Nanamoli, Bodhi, etc. Bhikkhu Bodhi is very careful to explicitly point out where he differs from the interpretations in the Commentaries. Given the amount of time it takes me to study the Suttas the cost per hour of reading has become vanishingly small... :reading:

Metta
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Dhammakid
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Re: Pali Canon

Post by Dhammakid »

Hello all,
This is all great information, thank you all very much.

I am not even close to the point where I can begin discriminating between various translations and their scholars. I am very much a beginner in understanding the words of the Buddha, so any translation helps me (since I am always reading for general understanding and not anything deep). Basically my practice consists of reading a sutta and getting the words in my head, and reflecting on them during the day and seeing if anything pops up during meditation. But beyond that - I have no teacher (right now, you all are my teachers, and the Buddha, haha), so all I have to rely on is online discussion and internet resources.

I'm not even sure if reading the texts are doing me any good other than giving some knowledgeable frameworks by which to discuss and think about. But maybe that's all I need right now.

So I guess what I'm saying is - I'm sticking with what's available to me. A2I seems good enough, as well as What Buddha Taught and a few others. I'll continue to ask questions when they come up.

Thanks again.

:namaste:
Dhammakid
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Re: Pali Canon

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi Dhammakid,

In my opinion the most efficient place to start is with Bhikkhu Bodhi's book, In the Buddha's Words:
http://wisdompubs.org/Pages/display.lasso?-KeyValue=104" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
It gives a very good overview of the Suttas organised in an easy-to-hard order with excellent explanation. It's cheap and you can read the introductory material and the first Chapter at the link above.

Metta
Mike
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Re: Pali Canon

Post by Cittasanto »

Hi Dhammakid
Dhammakid wrote:Hello all,
This is all great information, thank you all very much.

I am not even close to the point where I can begin discriminating between various translations and their scholars. I am very much a beginner in understanding the words of the Buddha, so any translation helps me (since I am always reading for general understanding and not anything deep). Basically my practice consists of reading a sutta and getting the words in my head, and reflecting on them during the day and seeing if anything pops up during meditation. But beyond that - I have no teacher (right now, you all are my teachers, and the Buddha, haha), so all I have to rely on is online discussion and internet resources.
it has only been in the last six months or so I ventured out into the world of comparing the Suttas Translations, and only found a teacher locally to where I lived a few years ago (I've since moved) and then it was only twice a year he was on the Isle.
I use to stick with the translation on A2I I preferred the "feel of"but wondered how the different translations compared (I'll post my thoughts of the piece on metta meditation)
Dhammakid wrote:I'm not even sure if reading the texts are doing me any good other than giving some knowledgeable frameworks by which to discuss and think about. But maybe that's all I need right now.

So I guess what I'm saying is - I'm sticking with what's available to me. A2I seems good enough, as well as What Buddha Taught and a few others. I'll continue to ask questions when they come up.

Thanks again.
look up on a search engine Aha Moments, also known as Eureka Moments
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
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Re: Pali Canon

Post by Cittasanto »

Hi Mike
mikenz66 wrote:Hi Dhammakid,

In my opinion the most efficient place to start is with Bhikkhu Bodhi's book, In the Buddha's Words:
http://wisdompubs.org/Pages/display.lasso?-KeyValue=104" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
It gives a very good overview of the Suttas organised in an easy-to-hard order with excellent explanation. It's cheap and you can read the introductory material and the first Chapter at the link above.

Metta
Mike

I have this book but I prefer the suttas in the canon order personally. but a good book and really liked the introductions.
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Pali Canon

Post by Ceisiwr »

Which is the oldest part of the sutta pitaka?
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Pali Canon

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
clw_uk wrote:Which is the oldest part of the sutta pitaka?
It's very much a sutta-by-sutta affair... but the following is a very rough guide... SN, AN/MN, DN, KN.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Pali Canon

Post by Dhammanando »

Hi Craig,
clw_uk wrote:Which is the oldest part of the sutta pitaka?
Theravada tradition holds that it was all recited at the First Council, excepting only those suttas taught by arahant disciples some time after the Buddha's passing. So, for those who accept this view obviously the oldest part of the Sutta Piṭaka will be that which the Buddha taught first: his speech to Upaka on the way to Sarnath and then the Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta.

Modern Pali scholars, on the other hand, propose a variety of theories about the oldest stratum. Some argue for the Aṭṭhakavagga and Parāyanavagga of the Suttanipāta, others for certain suttas from the Majjhima Nikāya, others for an hypothesized proto-Saṃyutta Nikāya, etc. etc.

Best wishes,
Dhammanando Bhikkhu
Yena yena hi maññanti,
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.


In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
(Sn. 588)
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Cittasanto
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Re: Pali Canon

Post by Cittasanto »

Hi Dhammanando
Dhammanando wrote:obviously the oldest part of the Sutta Piṭaka will be that which the Buddha taught first: his speech to Upaka on the way to Sarnath and then the Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta.
I thought the Dhammacakkavattana was the first?
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
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Dhammanando
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Re: Pali Canon

Post by Dhammanando »

Hi Manapa,
Manapa wrote:I thought the Dhammacakkavattana was the first?
It's true that the Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta is classed as the Buddha's first teaching of Dhamma (dhammadesanā). However, before this, while he was on his way to the Deer Park, the Buddha met the ājīvaka Upaka and the following dialogue ensured:
  • Upaka:

    "Your faculties are serene, friend; the complexion of your skin is clear and bright. Under whom have you gone forth? Or who is your teacher? Or whose Dhamma do you confess?"

    The Buddha:

    "I am an All-transcender, an All-knower,
    Unsullied by all things, renouncing all,
    By craving's ceasing freed. And this I owe
    To my own wisdom. To whom should I concede it?

    "I have no teacher, and my like
    Exists nowhere in all the world
    With all its gods, because I have
    No person for my counterpart.

    "I am the Teacher in the world
    Without a peer, accomplished, too,
    And I alone am fully awakened,
    Quenched, whose fires all extinct.

    "I go to Kāsi's city now
    To set the Wheel of Dhamma
    In motion: in a blindfold world
    I go to beat the Deathless Drum."

    Upaka:

    "By your claims, friend, you are a Universal Victor."

    The Buddha:

    "The victors like me, Upaka,
    Are those whose taints are quite exhausted;
    I have vanquished all states of evil:
    It is for that I am a Victor."

    When this was said, the ājīvaka Upaka remarked: "May it be so, friend"; shaking his head, he took a side track and departed.
    (Vin.i.8; MN.i.170-1. trans. from Ñāṇamoli's Life of the Buddha)
However, the above exchange is not viewed as a dhammadesanā, but rather as a vāsanābhāgiya sutta, i.e. a discourse aimed at establishing someone on a wholesome course. In Upaka's case this bore fruit later, when, after contracting a miserable marriage, he went forth and ended his life as an anāgāmin.

Best wishes,
Dhammanando Bhikkhu
Yena yena hi maññanti,
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.


In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
(Sn. 588)
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Cittasanto
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Re: Pali Canon

Post by Cittasanto »

Hi Dhammanando
Thanks!
I was going to add is it something to do with the difference in style such as one being a teaching the other a conversation, or something of the like that poped in my mind at the time!
With Metta
Manapa
Dhammanando wrote:Hi Manapa,
Manapa wrote:I thought the Dhammacakkavattana was the first?
It's true that the Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta is classed as the Buddha's first teaching of Dhamma (dhammadesanā). However, before this, while he was on his way to the Deer Park, the Buddha met the ājīvaka Upaka and the following dialogue ensured:
  • Upaka:

    "Your faculties are serene, friend; the complexion of your skin is clear and bright. Under whom have you gone forth? Or who is your teacher? Or whose Dhamma do you confess?"

    The Buddha:

    "I am an All-transcender, an All-knower,
    Unsullied by all things, renouncing all,
    By craving's ceasing freed. And this I owe
    To my own wisdom. To whom should I concede it?

    "I have no teacher, and my like
    Exists nowhere in all the world
    With all its gods, because I have
    No person for my counterpart.

    "I am the Teacher in the world
    Without a peer, accomplished, too,
    And I alone am fully awakened,
    Quenched, whose fires all extinct.

    "I go to Kāsi's city now
    To set the Wheel of Dhamma
    In motion: in a blindfold world
    I go to beat the Deathless Drum."

    Upaka:

    "By your claims, friend, you are a Universal Victor."

    The Buddha:

    "The victors like me, Upaka,
    Are those whose taints are quite exhausted;
    I have vanquished all states of evil:
    It is for that I am a Victor."

    When this was said, the ājīvaka Upaka remarked: "May it be so, friend"; shaking his head, he took a side track and departed.
    (Vin.i.8; MN.i.170-1. trans. from Ñāṇamoli's Life of the Buddha)
However, the above exchange is not viewed as a dhammadesanā, but rather as a vāsanābhāgiya sutta, i.e. a discourse aimed at establishing someone on a wholesome course. In Upaka's case this bore fruit later, when, after contracting a miserable marriage, he went forth and ended his life as an anāgāmin.

Best wishes,
Dhammanando Bhikkhu
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
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