is 'no self' a self-identity view?

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matais
Posts: 16
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2012 8:04 am

is 'no self' a self-identity view?

Post by matais »

Hello all,

I have a question. Is the view 'there is no self' also a self-identity view? Specifically, does holding such a view prevent the attainment of stream-entry?
MN2 wrote: "As he attends inappropriately in this way, one of six kinds of view arises in him: The view I have a self arises in him as true & established, or the view I have no self... or the view It is precisely by means of self that I perceive self... or the view It is precisely by means of self that I perceive not-self... or the view It is precisely by means of not-self that I perceive self arises in him as true & established, or else he has a view like this: This very self of mine — the knower that is sensitive here & there to the ripening of good & bad actions — is the self of mine that is constant, everlasting, eternal, not subject to change, and will stay just as it is for eternity. This is called a thicket of views, a wilderness of views, a contortion of views, a writhing of views, a fetter of views. Bound by a fetter of views, the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person is not freed from birth, aging, & death, from sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair. He is not freed, I tell you, from suffering & stress.
(http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;)

From this it follows that the view 'there is no self' prevents the attainment of the Arahant state. However, the 'fetter of views' referred in MN2 does not occur in the list of the 10 fetters:
AN10.13 wrote: "There are these ten fetters. Which ten? Five lower fetters & five higher fetters. And which are the five lower fetters? Self-identity views, uncertainty, grasping at precepts & practices, sensual desire, & ill will. These are the five lower fetters. And which are the five higher fetters? Passion for form, passion for what is formless, conceit, restlessness, & ignorance. These are the five higher fetters. And these are the ten fetters."
(http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;)

The closest fetter is 'self-identity views'. Is this the fetter referred to in MN2? If so, it seems to me that even stream-entry can't be attained while holding the view 'there is no self', since this is one of the 3 fetters whose abandoning leads to stream-entry.

Is this reasoning correct?

All the best,
Matais
vinasp
Posts: 1675
Joined: Tue Aug 18, 2009 7:49 pm
Location: Bristol. United Kingdom.

Re: is 'no self' a self-identity view?

Post by vinasp »

Hi matais,

Quote: "I have a question. Is the view 'there is no self' also a self-identity view? Specifically, does holding such a view prevent the attainment of stream-entry?"

Thanissaro Bhikkhu appears to think that the view 'there is no self' is as bad as
the view 'there is a self'. This is his interpretation of the Nikaya teachings
which are somewhat obscure on many of these points.

You ask about the view 'there is no self' and you quote MN 2, but does this sutta
mention such a view? Let us look at Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation:

"When he attends unwisely in this way, one of six views arises in him. The view
'self exists for me' arises in him as true and established; or the view
'no self exists for me' arises in him as true and established; or the view ..."

Why does Thanissaro omit the quotation marks which make clear the actual view?
The view 'no self exists for me' is almost a self-contradictory view.

Even if it was translated as 'I have no self' it would still be a problem.
The conceit 'I am' must also be eliminated. So an Arahant would not say
'I have no self'.

But this issue is complicated by a lack of clarity on many points.

1. What exactly is a view?

2. What exactly is 'self-identity view'?

3. What is the 'fetter of views'?

4. The Buddha does say 'I' in some passages, this is understood as
'conventional speech'.

Does removing the view of self mean that one must have the view of no-self?

Regards, Vincent.
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m0rl0ck
Posts: 1193
Joined: Fri Jan 30, 2009 10:51 am

Re: is 'no self' a self-identity view?

Post by m0rl0ck »

vinasp wrote: So an Arahant would not say
'I have no self'.
How do you know what an arahant would or would not say? what are you basing this on? Is this just conjecture?
“The truth knocks on the door and you say, "Go away, I'm looking for the truth," and so it goes away. Puzzling.” ― Robert M. Pirsig
Sylvester
Posts: 2204
Joined: Tue Mar 10, 2009 9:57 am

Re: is 'no self' a self-identity view?

Post by Sylvester »

Hi matais

There is a slight and nuanced difference between the view "there is no self" and the views reported in MN 2. In MN 2, what underlies the views is still the subtle reference point of "I" or "me". Something is still being appropriated or clung to as identity/sakkāya.

You can therefore find a variation to this subtle clinging in AN 10.3, under "conceit", traditionally explained in several permutation, but basically as under the impulse to think in terms of "I am". See - http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 40#p181001" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Hi vinasp
Why does Thanissaro omit the quotation marks which make clear the actual view?
The view 'no self exists for me' is almost a self-contradictory view.
You are correct to point out that the translation omitted the iti/quotation marks. However, since there is a verb standing in relation to a noun functioning as an object in the clause, the iti clitic can function in this case as a subject complementiser. In English, the iti clitic's function is performed by "that". Ven T's translation is correct, although I do prefer BB's convention of not using English complementisers, since the visibility of a Pali clitic has other useful purposes.
santa100
Posts: 6814
Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2011 10:55 pm

Re: is 'no self' a self-identity view?

Post by santa100 »

Ven. Thanissaro wrote 2 great essays on this topic..

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... self2.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... tself.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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