An obscuration of the natural state of the mind. The uncluttered, quiet, non-moving mind.Peter wrote:This is a little vague. Perhaps you could clarify? A movement from what? or to what?pink_trike wrote:Religious impulse:
A movement of the mind. A mind-state. A sensory/conceptual experience that arises as a result of internal/external conditioning. An obscuration.
A movement of mind is a neutral thing. So is a mind state. So is a sensory/conceptual experience. The only part of your definition which implies some sort of negativity is "an obscuration" but it's still too vague to be actually saying anything. An obscuration of what?
Buddhism and religion
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Re: Buddhism and religion
Vision is Mind
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss
- Dawa Gyaltsen
---
Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss
- Dawa Gyaltsen
---
Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.
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Re: Buddhism and religion
I think we all need to take note that there might be potential for that worst expression inherent in all religion.tiltbillings wrote:clw_uk wrote:It is the feelings of moral superiority and pity that are blameworthy, not religion or lack of religion, and those blameworthy qualities can be identified and rooted out.
and what if the religion demands child sacrifice as a central pillar? What if religion demands death to apostates? Isnt the blame on religion and not the person here so its not always the problems of moral superiority but doctrine itself
And so we characterize all religion by the worst expressions of religion?
Vision is Mind
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss
- Dawa Gyaltsen
---
Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss
- Dawa Gyaltsen
---
Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.
Re: Buddhism and religion
The blame would be on that particular religion, not on religion as a whole (which is what this thread is about). To put it another way, just because one religion might promote child sacrifice does not mean all religions advocate child sacrifice or that child sacrifice is a necessary part of any religion.clw_uk wrote:and what if the religion demands child sacrifice as a central pillar? What if religion demands death to apostates? Isnt the blame on religion and not just the person here so its not always the problems of moral superiority but doctrine itselfIt is the feelings of moral superiority and pity that are blameworthy, not religion or lack of religion, and those blameworthy qualities can be identified and rooted out.
To continue this theme... if a particular religion promotes moral superiority as a doctrine then that religion is blameworthy. But again, that does not reflect on religion as a whole or as a concept.
- Peter
Be heedful and you will accomplish your goal.
Be heedful and you will accomplish your goal.
- tiltbillings
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Re: Buddhism and religion
He said, making an essentialist argument. There might be, but then there might be the potential great good.I think we all need to take note that there might be potential for that worst expression inherent in all religion.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
- tiltbillings
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Re: Buddhism and religion
Non-religious Buddhists also take the 8FP as the supreme guiding principle in one's life - do you think that there a difference in how non-relig and relig people experience this commitment?
The "non-religious" Buddhists are simply doing religion, but refuse to call it that.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Re: Buddhism and religion
Some do, some don't. Why? I would say the answer is the same as to why a person does anything: previous conditions.pink_trike wrote:My question has been "why wouldn't we just note that impulse as sensation/emotion/reaction, let it go, and proceed to do the work?" instead of (my view --->) getting getting sticky with it, entrenching it as identity, and letting it color reality (attachment)?
I'm sorry, didn't you say just a few posts ago that you are unfamiliar with it?Non-religious buddhists aren't unfamiliar with this religious impulse...
Perhaps, perhaps not. You are "moving the goalposts" so to speak. You are changing your definitions on the fly. Let's back up a minute.what makes us different is that we don't attach to it when it arises.
Are you wishing to discuss why some people experience a religious impulse and some don't?
Or are you wishing to discuss why some people react badly to the religious impulse and some don't?
It is also the place that all religious wonders have emerged.The moving to the other side of gap is what really puzzles me, and concerns me also because from my perspective it is from this place that all religious horrors have emerged.
There is something else to consider as well. We can expect the people who react badly to the religious impulse tend to do so in very public, very noisy, very messy ways... while the people who react well, on the other hand, tend to do so in very reclusive, private, quiet ways.
The Buddha himself warned against it. He used a simile of searching for heartwood but getting attached to the leaves and twigs. For example, a person might get attached to jhanas and not progress to Nibbana. It is worth noting that the Buddha did not conclude one should not value jhana, just that one should not get stuck on it. Hopefully someone else can provide the reference. I always have trouble remembering which sutta this is.That someone experiences the religious impulse (glimpses of bliss, comfort, expansiveness, insight, agency, etc...) and then doesn't want to let go of it? It seems to me that this is what teachers warn against.
I already provided a quote which I feel illustrates it with the "follower for life" refrain. In general I would say it is addressed by the phrase "a mind free from hindrances, purified and bright", and also by the concept of refuge. In brief, it is a mind free from doubt and endowed with faith. I am sure this hits the issue square on the head as issues of faith and doubt tend to be the main point of contention between religious and non-religious people. (Of course there are wholesome types of doubt and unwholesome types of faith but as I said this is in brief.)Is this mind event, the gap, and moving to the other side of the gap in one's mind explicitly addressed by the 4NT/8 FP? The suttas?
I would say (and the Oxford dictionary would say) a person who takes the 8FP as the supreme guiding principle in one's life is thus religious. I've already said this though.pink_trike wrote:Non-religious Buddhists also take the 8FP as the supreme guiding principle in one's life - do you think that there a difference in how non-relig and relig people experience this commitment?Peter wrote:I would call this the difference between merely finding some Buddhist teachings interesting to taking on Buddhism as a religion, taking the Noble Eightfold Path as the supreme guiding principle in one's life.
No, it isn't. You might find it fun to slag all religious people but it is not necessary if one wants to discuss what constitutes religion or religiosity.Isn't this an essential starting point though?To say "the religious impulse is bad because it is a supporting condition for all sorts of bad behavior" is going to make one less objective. To say "the religious impulse is good because it is a supporting condition for liberation" is also going to make one less objective.
I do not think it is essential; I think it is interesting. What is essential if you are going to discuss it is to approach it with respect and care, something you have yet to do.I think we're both in agreement that no matter how we decide to engage the religious impulse, it's essential to do it and it needs to be done mindfully.
- Peter
Be heedful and you will accomplish your goal.
Be heedful and you will accomplish your goal.
Re: Buddhism and religion
The natural state of mind for whom? According to the Buddha, and according to readily observable experience, the natural state of the unenlightened mind is cluttered, noisy, and moving. Thus the religious impulse is nothing out of the ordinary.pink_trike wrote:An obscuration of the natural state of the mind. The uncluttered, quiet, non-moving mind.Peter wrote:This is a little vague. Perhaps you could clarify?pink_trike wrote:Religious impulse:
A movement of the mind. A mind-state. A sensory/conceptual experience that arises as a result of internal/external conditioning. An obscuration.
If you are going to categorize any movement of mind as problematic then that would include logging on to Buddhists web forums and debating the merits of religion. I will agree an uncluttered, quiet, non-moving mind is the goal; I will not agree that therefore puts all religion in a special category worse than any other movement of the mind in an unenlightened person.
(Your position is beginning to resemble a pseudo-Zen argument.)
- Peter
Be heedful and you will accomplish your goal.
Be heedful and you will accomplish your goal.
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Re: Buddhism and religion
These are not easy things to apply words to - I'm sure you would agree.tiltbillings wrote:Non-religious Buddhists also take the 8FP as the supreme guiding principle in one's life - do you think that there a difference in how non-relig and relig people experience this commitment?
The "non-religious" Buddhists are simply doing religion, but refuse to call it that.
Non-religious people encounter the same impulses (glimpses of bliss, expansiveness, insight, subtle or seemingly profound states, progressive stages, etc...) that naturally arise in practice, but with practice refrain from delighting in them and cherishing them as religious (engaging it as religious materializes it and turns these experiences into egoic hooks). Therefore it isn't a "religious" impulse that non-religious people experience - it is just movements of the mind arising from changing internal conditions...teachers warn us about these mind-states and instruct us not to get sticky with them or build an identity from them...not to own them.
Vision is Mind
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss
- Dawa Gyaltsen
---
Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss
- Dawa Gyaltsen
---
Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.
- pink_trike
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Re: Buddhism and religion
I've been warned by a moderator that if I continue to suggest that the religious impulse is an ego-defending reaction that I will be suspended. Therefore I can't continue further in this valuable discussion.
In light of that I'll take the opportunity to bow out of Dhamma Wheel. If anyone would like to keep in touch, you can find me on Facebook by searching this email address: jeffreyjoemiller at gmail.com
In light of that I'll take the opportunity to bow out of Dhamma Wheel. If anyone would like to keep in touch, you can find me on Facebook by searching this email address: jeffreyjoemiller at gmail.com
....referencing this:This a a warning. This is not the first time you have done this, where you have essentially characterized those who disagree with very negatively. Do it once more and you will be suspended.
Or perhaps the religious impulse and the recurrent question "why?" are respectively, ego-defending aversive and grasping reactions to an unconscious sense of the boundlessness of the Whole, and Siddhārtha Gautama's teachings were the antidote to these reactions.
Vision is Mind
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss
- Dawa Gyaltsen
---
Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss
- Dawa Gyaltsen
---
Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.
- tiltbillings
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Re: Buddhism and religion
You are not describing anything here that is unique to a supposedly "non-religious" practitioner. What you are describinbg is religious practice within a Buddhist framework. Not a problem. The difference seems to be that the supposed religious practitioner does not have the painfully obvious aversion you are displaying towards even the idea of a religious context. The religious context (minus the overloaded negativity you've dump onto it) is just stuff to work with. It can be quite benificial, but it is nothing to hold onto. The only difference here is that you define anything to do with religion in negative, aversive terms, but there is no need for that, no justification for that. Certainly not within a Buddhist context. So what it comes dowen to is: The "non-religious" Buddhists are simply doing religion, but refuse to call it that.pink_trike wrote:These are not easy things to apply words to - I'm sure you would agree.tiltbillings wrote:Non-religious Buddhists also take the 8FP as the supreme guiding principle in one's life - do you think that there a difference in how non-relig and relig people experience this commitment?
The "non-religious" Buddhists are simply doing religion, but refuse to call it that.
Non-religious people encounter the same impulses (glimpses of bliss, expansiveness, insight, subtle or seemingly profound states, progressive stages, etc...) that naturally arise in practice, but with practice refrain from delighting in them and cherishing them as religious (engaging it as religious materializes it and turns these experiences into egoic hooks). Therefore it isn't a "religious" impulse that non-religious people experience - it is just movements of the mind arising from changing internal conditions...teachers warn us about these mind-states and instruct us not to get sticky with them or build an identity from them...not to own them.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Re: Buddhism and religion
MikePeter wrote:MN 29: The Major Discourse on Heartwoodpink_trike wrote:The Buddha himself warned against it. He used a simile of searching for heartwood but getting attached to the leaves and twigs. For example, a person might get attached to jhanas and not progress to Nibbana. It is worth noting that the Buddha did not conclude one should not value jhana, just that one should not get stuck on it. Hopefully someone else can provide the reference. I always have trouble remembering which sutta this is.That someone experiences the religious impulse (glimpses of bliss, comfort, expansiveness, insight, agency, etc...) and then doesn't want to let go of it? It seems to me that this is what teachers warn against.
http://awake.kiev.ua/dhamma/tipitaka/2S ... ta-e1.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;Having gone forth thus is reborn in gain, honour and fame. Satisfied with it, yet his desires not fulfilled with that gain, honour and fame does not praise himself or disparage others. Not intoxicated and not negligent on account of that gain honour and fame takes upon himself to observe the virtues. Satisfied with it and his desires not fulfilled with the endowment of virtues, does not praise himself and disparage others. Not intoxicated and not negligent takes upon himself the endowment of concentration. Satisfied and his desires fulfilled with the endowment of concentration, praises himself and disparages others-I am concentrated with the mind in one point other bhikkhus are with distracted minds, intoxicated and negligent, on account of the endowment of concentration abides in unpleasantness. Like a man in need of heartwood wandering in search of heartwood, coming to a standing tree with heartwood ignoring the heartwood and the sapwood would cut the bark and carry it away thinking that is the heartwood.
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Re: Buddhism and religion
We recently had a big debate over at ZFI. On one side we had a few teachers who insisted that "true" Zen practice requires that one be guided by a teacher. On the other side were some folks who insisted a person could practice Zen on their own, meditating, working with teachings, engaging the world directly without needing to be "guided" and taught how to do so "correctly."
I finally bowed out of the discussion when I realized that attachment to a view is a hinderance to practice. We may all see things and experience our practice differently. That's cool. But as soon as you begin to assert that there is one "right" or "better" way to do things, you set your own mind spinning.
As one of our patriarchs put it:
"The Great Way is not difficult for those not attached to preferences. When neither love nor hate arises, all is clear and undisguised. Separate by the smallest amount, however, and you are as far from it as heaven is from earth.
If you wish to know the truth, then hold to no opinions for or against anything. To set up what you like against what you dislike is the disease of the mind.
When the fundamental nature of things is not recognized, the mind's essential peace is disturbed to no avail. The Way is perfect as vast space is perfect, where nothing is lacking and nothing is in excess.
Indeed, it is due to our grasping and rejecting that we do not know the true nature of things. Live neither in the entanglements of outer things, nor in ideas or feelings of emptiness. Be serene and at one with things and erroneous views will disappear by themselves.
When you try to stop activity to achieve quietude, your very effort fills you with activity. As long as you remain attached to one extreme or another you will never know the Way. Those who do not live in the Single Way cannot be free in either activity or quietude, in assertion or denial.
Deny the reality of things and you miss their reality; assert the emptiness of things and you miss their reality. The more you talk and think about it the further you wander from the truth. So cease attachment to talking and thinking, and there is nothing you will not be able to know.
~Seng-Tsan, Third Zen Patriarch
Hsin Hsin Ming - Verses on Faith Mind
- Translated by Richard Clarke
I finally bowed out of the discussion when I realized that attachment to a view is a hinderance to practice. We may all see things and experience our practice differently. That's cool. But as soon as you begin to assert that there is one "right" or "better" way to do things, you set your own mind spinning.
As one of our patriarchs put it:
"The Great Way is not difficult for those not attached to preferences. When neither love nor hate arises, all is clear and undisguised. Separate by the smallest amount, however, and you are as far from it as heaven is from earth.
If you wish to know the truth, then hold to no opinions for or against anything. To set up what you like against what you dislike is the disease of the mind.
When the fundamental nature of things is not recognized, the mind's essential peace is disturbed to no avail. The Way is perfect as vast space is perfect, where nothing is lacking and nothing is in excess.
Indeed, it is due to our grasping and rejecting that we do not know the true nature of things. Live neither in the entanglements of outer things, nor in ideas or feelings of emptiness. Be serene and at one with things and erroneous views will disappear by themselves.
When you try to stop activity to achieve quietude, your very effort fills you with activity. As long as you remain attached to one extreme or another you will never know the Way. Those who do not live in the Single Way cannot be free in either activity or quietude, in assertion or denial.
Deny the reality of things and you miss their reality; assert the emptiness of things and you miss their reality. The more you talk and think about it the further you wander from the truth. So cease attachment to talking and thinking, and there is nothing you will not be able to know.
~Seng-Tsan, Third Zen Patriarch
Hsin Hsin Ming - Verses on Faith Mind
- Translated by Richard Clarke
"As Buddhists, we should aim to develop relationships that are not predominated by grasping and clinging. Our relationships should be characterised by the brahmaviharas of metta (loving kindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), karuna (compassion), and upekkha (equanimity)."
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009
- retrofuturist
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Re: Buddhism and religion
Greetings,
Perhaps this is an appropriate time to remind everyone of the Terms Of Service (it always worries me that we have more members than "topic views" for the TOS)...
Dhamma Wheel Terms Of Service
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=2" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
and the following guidelines specific to this sub-forum
Appropriate conduct within the Dhammic free-for-all forum
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=175" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Thank you.
Metta,
Retro.
Perhaps this is an appropriate time to remind everyone of the Terms Of Service (it always worries me that we have more members than "topic views" for the TOS)...
Dhamma Wheel Terms Of Service
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=2" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
and the following guidelines specific to this sub-forum
Appropriate conduct within the Dhammic free-for-all forum
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=175" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Thank you.
Metta,
Retro.
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
Re: Buddhism and religion
I'm still not seeing any reason to characterize the problem as "religion". It seems you are doing so arbitrarily.pink_trike wrote:Non-religious people encounter the same impulses (glimpses of bliss, expansiveness, insight, subtle or seemingly profound states, progressive stages, etc...) that naturally arise in practice, but with practice refrain from delighting in them and cherishing them as religious (engaging it as religious materializes it and turns these experiences into egoic hooks). Therefore it isn't a "religious" impulse that non-religious people experience - it is just movements of the mind arising from changing internal conditions...teachers warn us about these mind-states and instruct us not to get sticky with them or build an identity from them...not to own them.
Some people encounter the same impulses (glimpses of bliss, expansiveness, insight, subtle or seemingly profound states, progressive stages, etc...) that naturally arise in practice, but with practice refrain from delighting in them and cherishing them (not refraining materializes it and turns these experiences into egoic hooks). it is just movements of the mind arising from changing internal conditions...teachers warn us about these mind-states and instruct us not to get sticky with them or build an identity from them...not to own them.
Same information, but without arbitrarily sticking "religion" onto it. No information is lost. You seem to want to characterize "religion" as "the act of getting sticky with it" but I see no basis for this. No accepted definition of "religion" suggests it. What we do see is a frequent concurrence in the public sphere between self proclaimed religious people and stickiness... but as any scientist will tell you "correlation does not imply causation". Your argument is tending toward the circular "Religion is bad because I define it in such a way as to include badness."
I might as well say chocolate is unpleasant because I define chocolate as "that unpleasant taste which comes from cocoa beans".
- Peter
Be heedful and you will accomplish your goal.
Be heedful and you will accomplish your goal.
Re: Buddhism and religion
I want to focus on something:
I don't think anyone here would argue that building an identity or trying to own is to be avoided. I suppose the question is: does having a religious approach necessitate building an identity or trying to own?not to build an identity from them...not to own them.
- Peter
Be heedful and you will accomplish your goal.
Be heedful and you will accomplish your goal.