Path and Nibbana

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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Polar Bear
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Re: Path and Nibbana

Post by Polar Bear » Mon May 14, 2012 1:20 am

Alex123 wrote:
If Nibbāna is a consciousness that arises... Doesn't that make Nibbāna temporal (there wasn't consciousness of it before, now it is) and conditioned (by the factors that cause this "consciousness" to arise)?
that is why I said experience of nibbana, I never said it was nibbana. Still though, there remains the question, since consciousness always takes an object then how does one experience nibbana. My proposal is that nibbana is simply the absence of the 3 fires of greed, aversion, and confusion/delusion because nibbana means going/gone out and that is why it is defined by negatives because it is the absence of conditioned things such as the craving and ignorance that sustain the 3 fires referred to above. So nibbana is the highest bliss because the conditioned phenomena that lead to dukkha are not present, in other words, nibbana isn't really anything at all, it is a lack of things
"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."

"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."

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Alex123
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Re: Path and Nibbana

Post by Alex123 » Mon May 14, 2012 1:28 am

polarbuddha101 wrote:that is why I said experience of nibbana, I never said it was nibbana.
What is the difference between experience of Nibbāna vs Nibbāna itself?
Can there be un-experienced Nibbāna?
polarbuddha101 wrote:My proposal is that nibbana is simply the absence of the 3 fires of greed, aversion, and confusion/delusion
Is that absence (of greed, aversion and confusion) experienced or not experienced?

If it is not experienced, then even at the moment of defilements this Nibbāna already is. If it is experienced, then this experience has to arise at some point in time as a result of practice which brings us back to the beginning.
"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

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Polar Bear
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Re: Path and Nibbana

Post by Polar Bear » Mon May 14, 2012 3:55 am

What is the difference between experience of Nibbāna vs Nibbāna itself?
Can there be un-experienced Nibbāna?
1) good point, they probably are indistinguishable

2) I would have to guess no, nibbana is not some realm or state existing by itself
Is that absence (of greed, aversion and confusion) experienced or not experienced?

If it is not experienced, then even at the moment of defilements this Nibbāna already is. If it is experienced, then this experience has to arise at some point in time as a result of practice which brings us back to the beginning.
the absence of greed, aversion and confusion obviously has to be experienced for it to be known. Since nibbana is defined as the absence of those 3 fires and the absence of craving it follows that nibbana is dependent on the existence of those 3 fires and craving in order for it to be defined. So, nibbana is simply a way of perceiving the world that is unlike anything we experience. Nibbana is seeing things how they truly are without any biases or concepts, going from samsara-ing all the time and then awaking to nibbana could be compared to living in the sewer your whole life and fighting with rats and then emerging from the sewer one day to a wonderful sunny day with the birds chirping and sitting under the shade of a nice tree drinking pristine water and not having a care in the world. That's the only way I can think of it, obviously I have no idea what the Awakened One actually experienced but it sounds wonderful. I also think that nibbana is not a metaphysical proposition, that it is truly just the seen in what is seen, just the heard in what is heard etc. with no BS stacked on top, no fear or anxiety or stress, and so yes, nibbana does not exist independently of the experience of it except in the sense that it is potentially possible for any human to awaken to that mode of perception. So the real question is if nibbana is a way of experiencing the world then for it to have any unconditioned reality to it then doesn't that mean that nibbana is the way things are and we've turned the world into samsara by simply being ignorant and by craving and therefore causing ourselves dukkha? If so, then dukkha is manufactured and nibbana is simply the experience someone has when they deconstruct all the false perceptions and confused ways of processing information. So in one way nibbana is dependent on conditions in the sense that there has to be a human to experience it but it's unconditioned in the sense that it isn't fabricated by the human mind, nibbana occurs when the human mind stops fabricated things out of ignorance. That's all I can really say, I'll let you know more if I ever become awakened myself and find out what nibbana is.

I realize what I wrote might sound wrong or repetitive or something like that to people so feel free to tell me where I've gone wrong in my statements, this is an interesting topic.

:namaste:
"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."

"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."

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tiltbillings
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Re: Path and Nibbana

Post by tiltbillings » Mon May 14, 2012 4:04 am

Alex123 wrote:If Nibbāna never arises, always is, uncreated, unconditioned, etc - then how can practice which is conditioned create it?
It is a problem when one assumes nibbana is a thing.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

vinasp
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Re: Path and Nibbana

Post by vinasp » Mon May 14, 2012 1:38 pm

Hi everyone,

Some have said: "nibbana is not a place ..."

But in Ud 8.1 nibbana is said to be "that sphere" (tadaayatanam).

The Buddha seems to accept that some can be reborn - after death - as a deva in any of the four formless spheres. They even give the very long lifetimes of these beings.

All that is needed is to master the corresponding formless absorption. But what about the final state in this sequence - the cessation of perception and feeling? This does not seem to correspond to any of the planes which make up the cosmos.

Could some monks have thought that this state is nibbana, that it was beyond the cosmos? That they could arise there after death having escaped samsara or the cycle of birth and death? An eternal, blissful existence?

Of course, this is not the true aim of the teachings. But the teachings are a contradiction. If they say that these realms are just imagination and do not really exist - then how could they teach rebirth?

Regards, Vincent.

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Alex123
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Re: Path and Nibbana

Post by Alex123 » Mon May 14, 2012 6:28 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
Alex123 wrote:If Nibbāna never arises, always is, uncreated, unconditioned, etc - then how can practice which is conditioned create it?
It is a problem when one assumes nibbana is a thing.
Nibbāna is described as that base (tadāyatanaṃ) that is (Atthi). Some people interpret the suttas to claim that it is a dhamma.

Is Nibbāna a new experience of (absence of greed, anger and delusion.)?
"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

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reflection
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Re: Path and Nibbana

Post by reflection » Mon May 14, 2012 9:02 pm

This may be of interest:
http://www.abhayagiri.org/main/book/1788/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I did not read it through (and probably never will, considering my interest in reading :tongue:), but as far as I've skipped through it, it seems to mainly quote suttas and teachers, leaving the specific interpretation to the reader. Which is nice, I think.


Bye and metta!
:anjali:

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Polar Bear
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Re: Path and Nibbana

Post by Polar Bear » Mon May 14, 2012 9:16 pm

vinasp wrote:Hi everyone,

Some have said: "nibbana is not a place ..."

But in Ud 8.1 nibbana is said to be "that sphere" (tadaayatanam).
right but there is also something the buddha called the six-sense spheres, and the six-sense spheres are not places they are the limitations of perception, so nibbana is that final sphere of perception/awareness, it is the island where no one can go further because nibbana is the most refined/clear way of seeing things, nibbana has no fabrications in it, it is not conditioned by ignorance like every other way of perceiving the world, it is pure awareness, this is why the Buddha when asked just after his awakening if he was a deva and he said no, if he was a gandhabba and he said no, if he was a yakkha and he said no, if he was a human and he said no, the Buddha simply said "I am awake" because at that stage fabrications don't apply, they're ultimately meaningless. So nibbana is not a place
"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."

"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."

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Ron-The-Elder
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Re: Path and Nibbana

Post by Ron-The-Elder » Fri Aug 10, 2012 11:19 am

polarbuddha101 wrote:
vinasp wrote:Hi everyone,

Some have said: "nibbana is not a place ..."

But in Ud 8.1 nibbana is said to be "that sphere" (tadaayatanam).
right but there is also something the buddha called the six-sense spheres, and the six-sense spheres are not places they are the limitations of perception, so nibbana is that final sphere of perception/awareness, it is the island where no one can go further because nibbana is the most refined/clear way of seeing things, nibbana has no fabrications in it, it is not conditioned by ignorance like every other way of perceiving the world, it is pure awareness, this is why the Buddha when asked just after his awakening if he was a deva and he said no, if he was a gandhabba and he said no, if he was a yakkha and he said no, if he was a human and he said no, the Buddha simply said "I am awake" because at that stage fabrications don't apply, they're ultimately meaningless. So nibbana is not a place
However, according to the following: "nirvanna" is a town in Michigan:
Michigan:
Bad Axe, MI
Christmas, MI
Climax, MI
Gay, MI
Hell, MI
Lake, MI
Nirvanna, MI :tongue:
Paradise, MI
Saline, MI


source: http://www.lkfshow.com/funfacts/townnames.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

My understanding is that Nibanna is an unconditioned and non-dependent state, meaning that kamma does not exist, but, having never attained it, I will reserve my final description for when I do. I am not even certain if there is such a thing as time in nibbana, so "when" may not be he right choice of words.
What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.

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equilibrium
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Re: Path and Nibbana

Post by equilibrium » Fri Aug 17, 2012 12:28 am

Time does not exist, you don't need to touch Nibbana to realize it.....For anything to exist it must depend on something else!
So how can "Time" exist on this planet called Earth?

The 6 sense spheres are all empty.....what you sense cannot be real.....it is real because you "believe" it is real.

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Ron-The-Elder
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Re: Path and Nibbana

Post by Ron-The-Elder » Fri Aug 17, 2012 2:16 pm

equilibrium wrote:Time does not exist, you don't need to touch Nibbana to realize it.....For anything to exist it must depend on something else!
So how can "Time" exist on this planet called Earth?

The 6 sense spheres are all empty.....what you sense cannot be real.....it is real because you "believe" it is real.
I was speaking in mundane, non-relativistic terms, which, while empty, have utility in our samsaric time-space. :thinking: While we cannot satisfactorally define time, it does have utility. Try making a medical appointment without the use of it and you will find out why. :anjali:
What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.

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DAWN
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Re: Path and Nibbana

Post by DAWN » Mon Aug 27, 2012 10:52 am

One minute is asking one other minute:
-Friend, do you believe in Eternity? Can you wait it?

One place is asking one other place:
-Friend, do you believe in Infinity? Can you lead to it?

One photon is asking one other photon:
-Friend, do you believe in Sun? Can you enlight it?

One gramm asking one other gramm:
-Friend, do you believe in Weight? Can you weigh it?

One picture is askin one other picture:
-Friend, do you believe in Canvas? Can you draw It ?

One noize is asking one other noize:
-Friend, do you believe in Silience? Can you spell it?

One form is asking one other form:
-Friend, do you believe in Emptyness? Can you show it?

One thought is asking one other thought:
-Friend, do you believe in Buddha ? Can you think it?
Sabbe dhamma anatta
We are not concurents...
I'am sorry for my english

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Ron-The-Elder
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Re: Path and Nibbana

Post by Ron-The-Elder » Thu Aug 04, 2016 12:17 pm

Found this regarding nibbana:

http://cdn.amaravati.org/wp-content/upl ... e_2015.pdf

Ron-The-Elder wrote:
polarbuddha101 wrote:
vinasp wrote:Hi everyone,

Some have said: "nibbana is not a place ..."

But in Ud 8.1 nibbana is said to be "that sphere" (tadaayatanam).
right but there is also something the buddha called the six-sense spheres, and the six-sense spheres are not places they are the limitations of perception, so nibbana is that final sphere of perception/awareness, it is the island where no one can go further because nibbana is the most refined/clear way of seeing things, nibbana has no fabrications in it, it is not conditioned by ignorance like every other way of perceiving the world, it is pure awareness, this is why the Buddha when asked just after his awakening if he was a deva and he said no, if he was a gandhabba and he said no, if he was a yakkha and he said no, if he was a human and he said no, the Buddha simply said "I am awake" because at that stage fabrications don't apply, they're ultimately meaningless. So nibbana is not a place
However, according to the following: "nirvanna" is a town in Michigan:
Michigan:
Bad Axe, MI
Christmas, MI
Climax, MI
Gay, MI
Hell, MI
Lake, MI
Nirvanna, MI :tongue:
Paradise, MI
Saline, MI


source: http://www.lkfshow.com/funfacts/townnames.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

My understanding is that Nibanna is an unconditioned and non-dependent state, meaning that kamma does not exist, but, having never attained it, I will reserve my final description for when I do. I am not even certain if there is such a thing as time in nibbana, so "when" may not be he right choice of words.
What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.

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