Is mahayana Buddism?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
whynotme
Posts: 743
Joined: Sat Jun 11, 2011 5:52 am

Re: Is mahayana Buddism?

Post by whynotme »

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote::goodpost:

There are ways of deciding what is Dhamma and what is Adhamma.

Four Great References

A Brief Discourse to Gotamī

Eight Thoughts of a Great Man

etc., and of course there is also the Kesamutti Sutta, which is often misquoted and/or misinterpreted.

Whatever you decide, your future happiness depends on it, so take due care, and keep examining your view to see if it is complete. Right view (sammāditthi), doesn't mean only right view as opposed to wrong view (micchā ditthi), it means perfect view — just as Sammāsambuddha means the Perfectly Enlightened Buddha.
Sir, thank you for your compliment and links, they are short, simple and very useful

Regards
Please stop following me
whynotme
Posts: 743
Joined: Sat Jun 11, 2011 5:52 am

Re: Is mahayana Buddism?

Post by whynotme »

Dan74 wrote:Dear whynotme

You make too many unwarranted assumptions in your long post for me to list, but thank you for taking care to write it.

To you the way you go about it must seem scientific, objective and correct, but to me it is full of logical holes and biases. Indeed, some great contemporary Theravada teachers, like Joseph Goldstein, to name one, think that practicing both Theravada and Mahayana works very well, and have discovered that they do not contradict each other, as far as their practice is concerned. How is this possible? Are they deluded or are you?
Dear Dan,

I don't care much about the name of the teachers, I only believe something when it is from Nikayas. And if you think mahayana helps you, mahayanist also taught me many things, it is not my problem

Regards
Please stop following me
User avatar
Cittasanto
Posts: 6646
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:31 pm
Location: Ellan Vannin
Contact:

Re: Is mahayana Buddism?

Post by Cittasanto »

whynotme wrote:
Dan74 wrote:Dear whynotme

You make too many unwarranted assumptions in your long post for me to list, but thank you for taking care to write it.

To you the way you go about it must seem scientific, objective and correct, but to me it is full of logical holes and biases. Indeed, some great contemporary Theravada teachers, like Joseph Goldstein, to name one, think that practicing both Theravada and Mahayana works very well, and have discovered that they do not contradict each other, as far as their practice is concerned. How is this possible? Are they deluded or are you?
Dear Dan,

I don't care much about the name of the teachers, I only believe something when it is from Nikayas. And if you think mahayana helps you, mahayanist also taught me many things, it is not my problem

Regards
Hi Why Not Me,
Just to go to the Kalama Sutta, but it is not the only such list
'Don't go by reports, by legends, by traditions, by scripture, by logical conjecture, by inference, by analogies, by agreement through pondering views, by probability, or by the thought, "This contemplative is our teacher."
this is a list of places knowledge can come from and be based, however these are not the main one
When you know for yourselves that, "These qualities are unskillful; these qualities are blameworthy; these qualities are criticized by the wise; these qualities, when adopted & carried out, lead to harm & to suffering"
There are texts outside of Theravada which have equal claim to authenticity. for purposes of practicing Theravada the Pali Canon is the best option, but for purposes of truth the pali canon is not the only source. Those who find themselves in Mahayana groups and have studied these texts and practiced ardently are just as Buddhist as any Theravadin, particularly when they have "ceased to do unskilled acts, learned to do skilful acts & purified their mind."
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
whynotme
Posts: 743
Joined: Sat Jun 11, 2011 5:52 am

Re: Is mahayana Buddism?

Post by whynotme »

Dear Cittasanto

Of course most of Mahayanist are Buddhist, and I think in Therevadin monks, many still have wrong view, it is normal. Ah thank to Bikkhu Pesala, right view is perfect view, or perfect view is right view because when something is true, then it is perfect true. If a view is not perfect, it is not right view.

I don't know how do you know this Cittasanto:
There are texts outside of Theravada which have equal claim to authenticity
particularly when they have "ceased to do unskilled acts, learned to do skilful acts & purified their mind."

How do you know this? How do you know authenticity of text outside of Therevada? How do you know authenticity of text of Therevada? How do you know they are equal?

How do you know those Mahayanist have ceased to do unskilled acts, learned to do skillful acts, purified their mind? Do you directly know their mind?

Regards
Please stop following me
User avatar
Cittasanto
Posts: 6646
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:31 pm
Location: Ellan Vannin
Contact:

Re: Is mahayana Buddism?

Post by Cittasanto »

Hi Whynotme,
I did not claim any authenticity or equality, only that they have equal claim to authenticity. Also I pointed out there are ardent mendicants that can also "cease to act in unskilled ways, learn to do good & purify their minds" (Dhammapada 183) as those in Theravada.

Regarding the texts try to look for some comparative analysis's of the Agama Sutras; which are considered by some to be Hinayana teachings. These are from other schools of Buddhism which have just as much claim as Theravada to relaying the authentic teachings of the Buddha.
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
User avatar
Enlightenment0106
Posts: 49
Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2012 3:28 am

Re: Is mahayana Buddism?

Post by Enlightenment0106 »

Yes it is, instead of questioning other branches of buddhism, as i am a Mahayanist as well as partly a Theravadist too, but i dont see why not? Its still buddhism aint it. They follow similiar teaching, the aim is the same , to achieve nirvana.
Form is emptiness. Emptiness is form--- Heart sutra
User avatar
Anagarika
Posts: 915
Joined: Thu Sep 22, 2011 11:25 pm

Re: Is mahayana Buddism?

Post by Anagarika »

"There are texts outside of Theravada which have equal claim to authenticity. for purposes of practicing Theravada the Pali Canon is the best option, but for purposes of truth the pali canon is not the only source. Those who find themselves in Mahayana groups and have studied these texts and practiced ardently are just as Buddhist as any Theravadin, particularly when they have "ceased to do unskilled acts, learned to do skilful acts & purified their mind."

:goodpost:
suttametta
Posts: 289
Joined: Sun May 06, 2012 2:55 pm

Re: Is mahayana Buddism?

Post by suttametta »

From Mahayana to Vajrayana (and Dzogchen) what you have is an increasingly global synthesis of Buddhism and Vedism. Once the method of anapanasati is changed from a mindfulness method to focusing on the breath as an object, then one begins to enter into the genre of practices begun in Pre-Vedic ages of focusing on objects, like mantras, images, etc., which are in essence a manner of concentrating on vibration.

Then, it becomes natural to synthesize Vedic ideas that flow from such experiences, like Brahman in Sanatana Dharma. How the Dharmakaya is a species of Sanatana dharma is where in Mahayana and Vajrayana the seed syllable is said to emanate from the Dharmakaya, as in the case of the Prajnaparamita of a Single Sound, etc., where mantras and dharanis become used. This comes from an Upanishadic notion about the nature of AUM. The Dzogchen Tantras explicitly describe themselves in the same way the Vedas describe themselves, as emanating from the primordial origin of the universe, namely sound.

Here we have a line in the sand. In Vedism you are focusing on vibration. One is supposed to trace the vibration back to the origin and find Brahman. Whereas, in Buddhism you are mindful of breathing, etc., to recognize pure consciousness without surface or feature with is Nirvana, no vibration. On paper it is not possible to discern, but having practice all three of these systems for years I discovered that the place in ourselves where vibrations emanate is a courser level than the level of pure consciousness. Brahman is the level of dreamless sleep, unconsciouness. Become aware of that is not nirvana which is completely lit and never unconscious.

Also, the Sravaka method of anapanasati is very fast and leads in a matter of days to whichever result Vajrayana and Dzogchen says takes a whole life or more. They are dragged down by these vibration concentration schemes. Even Mahamudra and Dzogchen in their pure forms, meditating "on emptiness," are dealing with the level of mind and thoughts, where they arises and disappear. This is not the path to nirvana either. You are still dealing with the level of fluctuation. In a real sense, these methods incorporation of Vedism and the use of such types of methodology, invariably leads to the Deva realms and not beyond samsara. It is their views about not the extreme of nirvana and not the extreme of samsara that keeps them in samsara.

Subsequently, I realized the explanations in Mahayana denigrating the Sravaka introduces doubt about the Sravaka's method and prevents success in that method due to that doubt. Which means Mahayana is hindrance.
Nyana
Posts: 2233
Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 11:56 am

Re: Is mahayana Buddism?

Post by Nyana »

suttametta wrote:From Mahayana to Vajrayana (and Dzogchen) what you have is an increasingly global synthesis of Buddhism and Vedism. Once the method of anapanasati is changed from a mindfulness method to focusing on the breath as an object, then one begins to enter into the genre of practices begun in Pre-Vedic ages of focusing on objects, like mantras, images, etc., which are in essence a manner of concentrating on vibration.

Then, it becomes natural to synthesize Vedic ideas that flow from such experiences, like Brahman in Sanatana Dharma. How the Dharmakaya is a species of Sanatana dharma is where in Mahayana and Vajrayana the seed syllable is said to emanate from the Dharmakaya, as in the case of the Prajnaparamita of a Single Sound, etc., where mantras and dharanis become used. This comes from an Upanishadic notion about the nature of AUM. The Dzogchen Tantras explicitly describe themselves in the same way the Vedas describe themselves, as emanating from the primordial origin of the universe, namely sound.

Here we have a line in the sand. In Vedism you are focusing on vibration. One is supposed to trace the vibration back to the origin and find Brahman. Whereas, in Buddhism you are mindful of breathing, etc., to recognize pure consciousness without surface or feature with is Nirvana, no vibration. On paper it is not possible to discern, but having practice all three of these systems for years I discovered that the place in ourselves where vibrations emanate is a courser level than the level of pure consciousness. Brahman is the level of dreamless sleep, unconsciouness. Become aware of that is not nirvana which is completely lit and never unconscious.

Also, the Sravaka method of anapanasati is very fast and leads in a matter of days to whichever result Vajrayana and Dzogchen says takes a whole life or more. They are dragged down by these vibration concentration schemes. Even Mahamudra and Dzogchen in their pure forms, meditating "on emptiness," are dealing with the level of mind and thoughts, where they arises and disappear. This is not the path to nirvana either. You are still dealing with the level of fluctuation. In a real sense, these methods incorporation of Vedism and the use of such types of methodology, invariably leads to the Deva realms and not beyond samsara. It is their views about not the extreme of nirvana and not the extreme of samsara that keeps them in samsara.
It seems to me that you've confused yourself by trying to follow too many systems. Firstly, the Vajrayāna is merely a subset of the Mahāyāna employing skillful means. Secondly, the Dzogchen tantras have been considered controversial throughout their history in Tibet and there is no evidence that they were ever propagated or accepted in Buddhist India. Thirdly, I'd suggest that if you want to understand the Mahāyāna on its own terms you find a reputable Gelugpa lama and study Śāntideva's Śikṣāsamuccaya and Bodhicaryāvatāra for a few years (and practice accordingly).
suttametta
Posts: 289
Joined: Sun May 06, 2012 2:55 pm

Re: Is mahayana Buddism?

Post by suttametta »

Ñāṇa wrote:It seems to me that you've confused yourself by trying to follow too many systems. Firstly, the Vajrayāna is merely a subset of the Mahāyāna employing skillful means. Secondly, the Dzogchen tantras have been considered controversial throughout their history in Tibet and there is no evidence that they were ever propagated or accepted in Buddhist India. Thirdly, I'd suggest that if you want to understand the Mahāyāna on its own terms you find a reputable Gelugpa lama and study Śāntideva's Śikṣāsamuccaya and Bodhicaryāvatāra for a few years (and practice accordingly).
I'm not at all confused. You're perhaps uncomfortable with my assertions. It's okay. I don't expect folks to agree. I have the transmission of the two texts you cite and have practiced them for many years from Kagyu which is very strong in Mahayana. I'm aware Vajrayana is a subset of Mahayana. I was making the point that Vajrayana employs methods more similar to Vedism than general Mahayana. I have transmission of 84 Mahasiddha methods that you won't ever have heard of. The transmissions I have are not ordinary. My teachers from the Kagyu and Nyingmpa have told me that I've realized Mahamudra and Dzogchen. My teachers from Vedanta also told me I have full knowledge of that system. All have authorized me to teach, including my Theravada teacher. Experience is the greatest teacher. I understand you are also very well experienced. My direct experience with Vedism has given me great clarity about where that path leads and whether Mahayana is really different or not.
Nyana
Posts: 2233
Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 11:56 am

Re: Is mahayana Buddism?

Post by Nyana »

suttametta wrote:I'm not at all confused.... My direct experience with Vedism has given me great clarity about where that path leads and whether Mahayana is really different or not.
Yes, well, this isn't an appropriate forum to go into such things, but Bhāviveka, Śāntarakṣita, Kamalaśīla, et al, have already systematically refuted the views of Vedānta, Mimāṃsā, etc. Of course, you're certainly free to create any conceptual synthesis of different systems that you wish, but it's inaccurate to assert that your hybrids represent Mahāyāna teachings and practices.
User avatar
Dan74
Posts: 4528
Joined: Sun Mar 01, 2009 11:12 pm
Location: Switzerland

Re: Is mahayana Buddism?

Post by Dan74 »

Thank you for your interesting post, suttametta.

There are several issues I have with it that perhaps you can help me with.

First a disclaimer - I am not a Vajrayana practitioner and my knowledge there is very limited. My primary practice is Korean Zen.

My first issue is whether the limitations of Vajra practice as you describe are really the limitations of your teachers rather than Vajrayana or Mahayana in general. Or perhaps even of your understanding. The reason I say this is that Sunyata (Emptiness) teachings and non-abiding which are pivotal in Mahayana go against what you are describing here.

My second issue is with the high credentials you claim. Under the circumstances and given the importance of what you have put across here, could I ask you to introduce yourself with your real name and the name of your teachers who have given you the empowerments you mentioned, the recognition and authorization to teach?

My practice is very basic and I have no authority to claim higher or lower attainments within a particular path or another. But little that I have learned and experienced does not gel with your description of Mahayana or the little exposure I have had to Vajrayana.

Looking forward to your post.



suttametta wrote:From Mahayana to Vajrayana (and Dzogchen) what you have is an increasingly global synthesis of Buddhism and Vedism. Once the method of anapanasati is changed from a mindfulness method to focusing on the breath as an object, then one begins to enter into the genre of practices begun in Pre-Vedic ages of focusing on objects, like mantras, images, etc., which are in essence a manner of concentrating on vibration.

Then, it becomes natural to synthesize Vedic ideas that flow from such experiences, like Brahman in Sanatana Dharma. How the Dharmakaya is a species of Sanatana dharma is where in Mahayana and Vajrayana the seed syllable is said to emanate from the Dharmakaya, as in the case of the Prajnaparamita of a Single Sound, etc., where mantras and dharanis become used. This comes from an Upanishadic notion about the nature of AUM. The Dzogchen Tantras explicitly describe themselves in the same way the Vedas describe themselves, as emanating from the primordial origin of the universe, namely sound.

Here we have a line in the sand. In Vedism you are focusing on vibration. One is supposed to trace the vibration back to the origin and find Brahman. Whereas, in Buddhism you are mindful of breathing, etc., to recognize pure consciousness without surface or feature with is Nirvana, no vibration. On paper it is not possible to discern, but having practice all three of these systems for years I discovered that the place in ourselves where vibrations emanate is a courser level than the level of pure consciousness. Brahman is the level of dreamless sleep, unconsciouness. Become aware of that is not nirvana which is completely lit and never unconscious.

Also, the Sravaka method of anapanasati is very fast and leads in a matter of days to whichever result Vajrayana and Dzogchen says takes a whole life or more. They are dragged down by these vibration concentration schemes. Even Mahamudra and Dzogchen in their pure forms, meditating "on emptiness," are dealing with the level of mind and thoughts, where they arises and disappear. This is not the path to nirvana either. You are still dealing with the level of fluctuation. In a real sense, these methods incorporation of Vedism and the use of such types of methodology, invariably leads to the Deva realms and not beyond samsara. It is their views about not the extreme of nirvana and not the extreme of samsara that keeps them in samsara.

Subsequently, I realized the explanations in Mahayana denigrating the Sravaka introduces doubt about the Sravaka's method and prevents success in that method due to that doubt. Which means Mahayana is hindrance.
_/|\_
Spiny Norman
Posts: 10154
Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:32 am
Location: Andromeda looks nice

Re: Is mahayana Buddism?

Post by Spiny Norman »

whynotme wrote: What do you think about Mahayana? Do you consider it part of Buddism?
Yes, I regard it as another turning of the wheel, and equally valid.
Buddha save me from new-agers!
suttametta
Posts: 289
Joined: Sun May 06, 2012 2:55 pm

Re: Is mahayana Buddism?

Post by suttametta »

Ñāṇa wrote:
suttametta wrote:I'm not at all confused.... My direct experience with Vedism has given me great clarity about where that path leads and whether Mahayana is really different or not.
Yes, well, this isn't an appropriate forum to go into such things, but Bhāviveka, Śāntarakṣita, Kamalaśīla, et al, have already systematically refuted the views of Vedānta, Mimāṃsā, etc. Of course, you're certainly free to create any conceptual synthesis of different systems that you wish, but it's inaccurate to assert that your hybrids represent Mahāyāna teachings and practices.
You know, arguments ultimately don't penetrate the issue. It comes down to the method and result. That's why in my humble opinion, these commentators are irrelevant.

Let me ask you something. Does an Arahat have the cognitive obscuration?
suttametta
Posts: 289
Joined: Sun May 06, 2012 2:55 pm

Re: Is mahayana Buddism?

Post by suttametta »

Dan74 wrote:...that Sunyata (Emptiness) teachings and non-abiding which are pivotal in Mahayana go against what you are describing here.
Non-abiding is an epithet for Brahman.
My second issue is with the high credentials you claim. Under the circumstances and given the importance of what you have put across here, could I ask you to introduce yourself with your real name and the name of your teachers who have given you the empowerments you mentioned, the recognition and authorization to teach?
I'm Paul Nathan Puri. As to Vajrayana, my teacher is Drubpon Gonpo Dorje Rinpoche since 2008. Others teachers here include Drubpon Rinchen Dorje, Khenchen Konchog Gyaltsen Rinpoche, Garchen Rinpoche, HH Chetsang Rinpoche and HH Taklung Matul Rinpoche. I have received empowerments of Chakarasamvara and Vajrayogini from the Drikung Kagyu lineage, including a transmission of a very secret Vajrayogini method given to Lawapa by Vajrayogini known as "White Lotus and Single A." It is a method whereby one can realize Mahamudra if practiced for one half a day, only a handful of people have been given this transmission, three of whom are the Holinesses and Garchen Rinpoche. I've received a vast amount of oral instruction on Mahamudra, especially Gampopa's pith instructions for example to Dusum Khyenpa, and Lord Jigten Sumgon's Profound Inner Methods. Here I also received the practice of Santideva. I've practiced Dzogchen through Kunsang Dechen Linpa Rinpoche, ChNN, and my own visionary dreams and experiences I had in childhood, mainly focused on Nyingthig and Zhang Zhung Nyen Gyud style. I've followed several different Theravada teachers, but the one I really agreed with is more recent, Madawala Punnaji. He told me if I want to teach his system to put it in my own words. I received tantra and Vedanta from my family lineage beginning in 1980. There are many sadhus who ascribe to it because it is very ancient.
My practice is very basic and I have no authority to claim higher or lower attainments within a particular path or another. But little that I have learned and experienced does not gel with your description of Mahayana or the little exposure I have had to Vajrayana.
I'm not really in favor of notions of high and low attainments. I'm not claiming I have a high attainment. I'm claiming I've understood what I've been taught and understood what demonstrated to me through methods.

I don't mention these things lightly. I'm not surprised at all that you and others would disagree with me. I am only doing my best to be honest with myself and others about what I see.

What I see is that Buddha's teachings on the way to Nibbana is a special case and stands alone in terms of practice and result. There is vast interrelatedness with all these other systems I've mentioned both in terms of practice and result. It's not something that can be ferreted out by means of argumentation. One has to feel the difference between a cool still pool and a swirling warm pool. Experience is the arbiter here.
Post Reply