In need of a mentor.

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
User avatar
echograph
Posts: 12
Joined: Wed Aug 01, 2012 10:14 pm

Re: In need of a mentor.

Post by echograph » Mon Aug 13, 2012 6:38 am

So lets say that I was an abuser in the past life. and I had the rape coming and deserved it. Since I have no memory of the past life, and in the next one I will have no memory
of this one, where is the lesson to be learned? where is the point that was made? Lets assume that Karma at play is paying me back for what I have done in the past life, Its making my life a living hell, giving me nightmares, robbed me of my childhood, took away my trust in humanity, made me resent sex, and never showed me love. What point does that make? where is the progress when all that happened was leaving a wound that takes a lifetime to heal? Where is the lesson to be learned?
I have read every major holy book cover-to-cover in 2 languages, they sound irrational, mean, and control masses by creating fear in god. While Karma, sounds like a force on its own, blindly functioning like a machine. Honestly burning in the Muslim or the Christian hell sounds A LOT better than the Karma at play, at least you know what you did and why you are suffering.

Blind belief is Blind belief. Sweeping generalizations and sprinkling punishment and reward around like candy. That sounds AS ignorant, blind, controlling and out-dated as any other faith. This was the ONLY time i asked for help and I was made to be the bad guy. Now tell me, what is karma is going to do to you for making me feel this way and obviously misrepresenting it. I guess you have to wait till the next life to be punished, and you will never know why you are being punished.

You know what this sounds like, a contributing/enabling factor for the cast system to function. a system of control and blind belief.
Thank you for showing me the true face of it. I was about to fall for it out of desperation.

whynotme
Posts: 479
Joined: Sat Jun 11, 2011 5:52 am

Re: In need of a mentor.

Post by whynotme » Mon Aug 13, 2012 7:01 am

santa100 wrote:Unfortunately, for one who doesn't believe in kamma, all the injustices in life will seems even more unbearable. Look at those Nazis mass murderers who escaped to Argentina, enjoyed luxurious life, and passed away at a ripe old age. Evil dictators like Stalin, Kim Il Sung never had to pay for the horrific crimes they commited against their own people. They lived like kings until their last breath. How about all those Wall Street fat cats who're making billions of dollars just by laying off people and manipulating the market? Some have enough cash to purchase an entire island and still have a lot left so their kids, grand kids, great great grand kids to continue their luxurious life without having to work to earn it. The list can go on forever. So, if everything was just mere chance or coincidence, then life would be a boundless ocean of injustice. Finally, a belief in kamma is in no way to imply one will give up trying. Quite the opposite, by fully aware that thru one's own action, one is in complete control of his/her future destiny, one would try even harder to abstain from all unwholesome states of body, speech, and mind and try to build a better future for oneself through one's own wholesome striving and effort..
Ah, well said. We are very lucky under the teaching of a Buddha.
Secondly and more importantly, it is extremely insensitive and lacking in compassion.
I don't think it lacks compassion when refer to kamma. Quite the opposite, if you belive in the kamma you know everyone can fall into its trap, because it is very complex, small actions can lead to big suffering and vice versa, so your have compassion for everyone, both victim and perpetrator. And you know that blame the victim's kamma or leave them alone will lead you to suffering, so it is basically wrong. Knowing the kamma isn't for blaming others.

Regards
Please stop following me

whynotme
Posts: 479
Joined: Sat Jun 11, 2011 5:52 am

Re: In need of a mentor.

Post by whynotme » Mon Aug 13, 2012 7:16 am

echograph wrote:So lets say that I was an abuser in the past life. and I had the rape coming and deserved it. Since I have no memory of the past life, and in the next one I will have no memory
of this one, where is the lesson to be learned? where is the point that was made? Lets assume that Karma at play is paying me back for what I have done in the past life, Its making my life a living hell, giving me nightmares, robbed me of my childhood, took away my trust in humanity, made me resent sex, and never showed me love. What point does that make? where is the progress when all that happened was leaving a wound that takes a lifetime to heal? Where is the lesson to be learned?
I have read every major holy book cover-to-cover in 2 languages, they sound irrational, mean, and control masses by creating fear in god. While Karma, sounds like a force on its own, blindly functioning like a machine. Honestly burning in the Muslim or the Christian hell sounds A LOT better than the Karma at play, at least you know what you did and why you are suffering.

Blind belief is Blind belief. Sweeping generalizations and sprinkling punishment and reward around like candy. That sounds AS ignorant, blind, controlling and out-dated as any other faith. This was the ONLY time i asked for help and I was made to be the bad guy. Now tell me, what is karma is going to do to you for making me feel this way and obviously misrepresenting it. I guess you have to wait till the next life to be punished, and you will never know why you are being punished.

You know what this sounds like, a contributing/enabling factor for the cast system to function. a system of control and blind belief.
Thank you for showing me the true face of it. I was about to fall for it out of desperation.
I don't think anyone here make you feel sad on purpose.

Honestly Christian can't explain your pain, is it God will? God want you suffering? To teach you something?

You may have some pain, big pain, but I think everyone here already have some problems in their lives and we all have to face it. Kama isn't on purpose, so the learning here is life is extremely dangerous, like a battlefield, if you don't have the skills you will be get killed or suffering. Believe me, I have sufferings and I accepted that I may have been a bad guy in the past, its normally for all of us been a bad guy in the past, even the Buddha, so we are not blame you on purpose, we are just merely point out a fact (in our faith).

You don't know how lucky you are when you have suffering while there is a Buddha and his teaching, because you may know how dangerous life is and you have chance to fix it all. I think most of us hope u best wishes and inner peace.

Regards.
Please stop following me

User avatar
echograph
Posts: 12
Joined: Wed Aug 01, 2012 10:14 pm

Re: In need of a mentor.

Post by echograph » Mon Aug 13, 2012 9:42 am

I dont think anyone is trying to make me feel sad on purpose.
And im fully aware that human has made this world a battlefield.

All I want is this one simple answer: What is Karma? The police force of the universe? revenge squad? peace keeper? Whatever Karma is, it sound extremely irrational to punish a soul for what it has done in its past life, without the soul knowing what it did that was so terrible. I would accept that if there was a lesson to be learned.

This is like sedating a criminal with Rohypnol so he wont remember what he did, then when sober, imprison him without an explanation. Just tell him that you have committed a crime that you have no recollection of and we wont tell you what the crime was, but now here is your punishment. and by the way, when you are being punished, we are going to give you some more Rohypnol so you wont remember the punishment either. in this case, replace Rohypnol with reincarnation.

Sorry but what you are describing is highly irrational. If you truly believe in that, you are living in hell. a Rohypnol induced hell. :shrug:

User avatar
Dan74
Posts: 3012
Joined: Sun Mar 01, 2009 11:12 pm

Re: In need of a mentor.

Post by Dan74 » Mon Aug 13, 2012 9:53 am

Kamma, as I understand it, is simply the fact that actions have consequences. Nothing more, nothing less.

Not everything bad that happens to us is due to some past fault of ours though thinking like this does work for some people and helps them avoid blaming and hateful thoughts.

It is not something apart from the world, over and above it, but just the law of causation. As far as post-mortem kamma is concerned, perhaps this becomes clear once we understand the nature of self/selves but it's not something one should worry about too much I think.

One way is to trust the Buddha and the teachers and take what we do very seriously because there are always consequences even if in the next life. The other is to put it aside and observe that whether or not one is punished externally for unwholesome actions, by their very nature they disturb and pollute the mind and result is unwholesome consequences for the doer, regardless of post-mortem rebirth.

Buddhism after all is a practice and teachings are relevant so far as their inform, inspire and direct our practice, not for their own sake.
_/|\_

whynotme
Posts: 479
Joined: Sat Jun 11, 2011 5:52 am

Re: In need of a mentor.

Post by whynotme » Mon Aug 13, 2012 11:30 am

echograph wrote:I dont think anyone is trying to make me feel sad on purpose.
And im fully aware that human has made this world a battlefield.

All I want is this one simple answer: What is Karma? The police force of the universe? revenge squad? peace keeper? Whatever Karma is, it sound extremely irrational to punish a soul for what it has done in its past life, without the soul knowing what it did that was so terrible. I would accept that if there was a lesson to be learned.

This is like sedating a criminal with Rohypnol so he wont remember what he did, then when sober, imprison him without an explanation. Just tell him that you have committed a crime that you have no recollection of and we wont tell you what the crime was, but now here is your punishment. and by the way, when you are being punished, we are going to give you some more Rohypnol so you wont remember the punishment either. in this case, replace Rohypnol with reincarnation.

Sorry but what you are describing is highly irrational. If you truly believe in that, you are living in hell. a Rohypnol induced hell. :shrug:
So how do you want the world to operate? You want it to be operated as there is no criminal, no sorrow, no anxiety? But no matter what you want or how much do you want, the world still operate in its own way, accept it or not, it is your choice. If you don't want to believe in kamma, it is your right, and it is normal.

But I tell you this, if you think your experience is still so terrible after many years, do you ever experience physical pain? Arm broken, bone broken, many people die in war. I know that every pain has it own kind, but if you now are experiencing a physical pain like your bones were broken, believe me, all your memory about your childhood will go away because you will scream like hell because of the pain. It is may hard to explain something for someone who not experience the same problem, so you may not feel terrible for the one who now experience physical pain.

Men die in war, in traffic accidents, by diseases hospital.. a short sentences is enough to describe the event but do you how much pain they must bear before they even can die? One hour in a serious pain may long like a year, and some people have it for years in real time, yes, that normal fact happens everyday everywhere. People with serious power and money cant hide from them either and if pain happens to a person, I think it will make them kneed and give everything for the cure.

Is it fair for them? You can find and go to meet someone in serious pain and see how they react, feel their pain, it may help you ease your own pain, have compassion for others and live a better life. And to see the bright side, you are not like them yet.

And lastly, do your family or friend know about it? Family and relatives help a lot, you can seek their help in parallel to the outside world. You need someone understand you, people that you can trust, protect you, make you feel safe, it will help you. Going alone is hard.

Regards.
Please stop following me

User avatar
Alobha
Posts: 566
Joined: Mon Dec 19, 2011 8:27 pm
Location: Germany

Re: In need of a mentor.

Post by Alobha » Mon Aug 13, 2012 1:10 pm

echograph wrote: All I want is this one simple answer: What is Karma? The police force of the universe? revenge squad? peace keeper? Whatever Karma is, it sound extremely irrational to punish a soul for what it has done in its past life, without the soul knowing what it did that was so terrible. I would accept that if there was a lesson to be learned.
Hi echograph,

If you want the short version, here you go:
"Intention, I tell you, is kamma. Intending, one does kamma by way of body, speech, & intellect."
— AN 6.63

for a better understanding of khamma, check this out:

Dhammawiki: http://dhammawiki.com/index.php?title=Kamma" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Nyanaponika Mahathera: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... fruit.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
In the Buddhas own words: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dham ... kamma.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Thanissaro Bhikkhu: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... karma.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
echograph wrote:This is like sedating a criminal with Rohypnol so he wont remember what he did, then when sober, imprison him without an explanation. Just tell him that you have committed a crime that you have no recollection of and we wont tell you what the crime was, but now here is your punishment. and by the way, when you are being punished, we are going to give you some more Rohypnol so you wont remember the punishment either. in this case, replace Rohypnol with reincarnation.

Sorry but what you are describing is highly irrational. If you truly believe in that, you are living in hell. a Rohypnol induced hell. :shrug:
Khamma is not a person, nor an intelligent being or anything like that. the law of khamma is like the law of physics in this matter: It does not work to punish or to reward, it has no moral intention in the way it works. It's just a mechanism. Another example: You can think a red traffic light is evil and unjust and a green traffic light is good and just, but the traffic light is really neither of it. The traffic light just does its thing. It does not want anything, it has no intention to bully or to be kind to you.
But unlike the traffic light, it's up to you what you get out of it. Do good and there will be good consequences. Do bad, and there will be bad consequences.

The law of Khamma is not something to believe in, but something to see for yourself.
echograph wrote:but my views changed, i realized that hate only hurts me.
This is the law of khamma right there. If you see for yourself, thoughts imbued with hatred and anger don't lead you to happiness, but to irritation and even more anger and hatred, that thoughts, speech and actions with hatred as their intention harm yourself, that's where you see how your actions lead to consequences! Well done, see it for yourself from your own experience!
echograph wrote:the problem is the effects the abuse had on my subconscious, it ruined my youth, it prevented good memories to be made, it made me an anxious, and depressed person living a love-less life with no hope in humanity. now, if you say Karma says I had it coming, and i did something to deserve it. maybe im looking in the wrong place for help. because the Karma you just described sounds irrational and illogical. inhumane and blindly mean. How is that supposed to help?
Put the question why something in the past happened to you on the sideburner for now. Khamma is not the only explanation (see Dhammawiki link) for why things might have happened to you in the past. The law of khamma shows that you are in charge of your decisions, you are in charge of your decisions and there will be consequences for your decisions, you and only you are responsible for every decision you make in your life. This can turn your life for better of for worse. It's up to you.

The past is the past. You can't change it. What happened, has happened. What you do now is up to you. You can think about the past again and again, linger on how bad you have been treated again and again, think of yourself as a victim again and again. The consequences of this? Everytime you bring those memories and thoughts back from the past, turn them alive in your mind again and relate to them in an unskillful manner, you may feel hurt again and again, feel sad again and again, feel as a powerless victim again and again. You can feel that, can't you? If you think about what you have lost or what you could have had, if you think about alternative realities that are not real and move you away from the present, is that helping you to find peace with the present? Or do you just get away from it this way?

You can move on from these things. You are in charge of whether you live in happiness in the present and the future or not. It is your actions, not the actions of some mad person who did something to you x years ago, that can lead you to happiness or to misery.
Now tell me, what is karma is going to do to you for making me feel this way and obviously misrepresenting it. I guess you have to wait till the next life to be punished, and you will never know why you are being punished.
This is quite another fine example for actions and the results of actions. If you have the perception "Others are responsible for my feelings, others are responsible for my misery, others are responsible for how i feel, i'm not responsible for it." then what is the obvious consequence? will there be the perception that you can change your life for the better, or will you continue in your life feeling like a victim to everyone around you? If you make others responsible for how you feel, will you bear resentment towards them or not?
This was the ONLY time i asked for help and I was made to be the bad guy.
"I was made to be..." "for making me feel this way"... these are quite striking formulations for these kinds of perceptions. People made you misunderstand, it's all their fault! Let's get and punish them! ;) ...Put things into perspectives. It's not the case that khamma explains everything that happens to you, but your inner world (and a good part of your outer environment, too!) is indeed shaped by your own behavior in speech, act and mind. No matter where you stand, the Buddha shows that it's by your actions that you can find happiness. It's not predetermined, it's not determined by others and it's not random. You are in charge of your own happiness.
This is the beautiful thing about the teachings of the Buddha. You don't have to put blind faith in a god or put all responsibilty in some supreme being. You are not told that you should do this or that. The teachings just shows what, if done, will lead to wholesome states of mind and will be beneficial to you and what, if done, will lead to unwholesome states of mind and will be unbeneficial to you. The teachings invite us to see and experience the truth for ourself, to see from our own experience how things really are.

If you feel offended by the idea, that you are in charge of your happiness, that it's up to you how you feel and relate to the world, this is just understandable. Accepting this also comes with accepting that if you act in a bad way, you are responsible for the bad consequences, which one may not like if one prefers to blame others for bad stuff. Either way, I wish you all the best and i hope that you will find a way out of this thicket of anger and sadness.

Best wishes,
Alobha

User avatar
Caraka
Posts: 89
Joined: Mon Jul 30, 2012 9:01 am

Re: In need of a mentor.

Post by Caraka » Mon Aug 13, 2012 2:12 pm

Do good and there will be good consequences. Do bad, and there will be bad consequences.
Is this not a bit oversimplifying?

For anyone who have, or still experience hell from events that caused mentally or physical traumas upon oneself should, in my opinion, only be met with conditions that they benefit from. Explaining to non-buddhist (or ignorants) that this is oneself wrongdoing (Khamma), is not benefiting anyone - at all. How can anyone who not understand Dukkha, understand Khamma? I for sure do not understand this approach.

One thing everyone does understand is the unchangeable past, and this make people able to understand that feelings related to the past are not helpful to oneself, now or in the future. But how can such a person feel better after this little insight? Feelings just does not fade away just because oneself know they do not help in the current moment.


- Off topic or not.... :tongue:
Last edited by Caraka on Mon Sep 03, 2012 6:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Alobha
Posts: 566
Joined: Mon Dec 19, 2011 8:27 pm
Location: Germany

Re: In need of a mentor.

Post by Alobha » Mon Aug 13, 2012 3:18 pm

Caraka wrote:
Do good and there will be good consequences. Do bad, and there will be bad consequences.
Is this not a bit oversimplifying?
Maybe a bit but you get the idea -->
AN 5.57 wrote:"'I am the owner of my actions (kamma), heir to my actions, born of my actions, related through my actions, and have my actions as my arbitrator. Whatever I do, for good or for evil, to that will I fall heir'

User avatar
waimengwan
Posts: 159
Joined: Thu Jul 12, 2012 2:22 am

Re: In need of a mentor.

Post by waimengwan » Mon Aug 13, 2012 5:28 pm

The laws of karma are no different from the laws of Gravity.

Gravity does not care if you are young, old, pregnant , happy, mother, king, pauper you will be subject to its law.

If we know how karma operates, we can't change the past but we can change the future. If we want happiness in ourselves, we must give happiness to others. The effect will be similar to the cause. if we do not think we are the victim that is very empowering to help us heal and get out from our pity party. We take responsibility for what has happened to us, and that we have harmed others in the past. For me it is much much better than blaming the people how have harmed you.

I also like Ajahn Brahm once said our lives is like a brickwall of 100. Probably out of that 100 one or two is not nicely arranged. Is there a reason to tear down the wall?

Also in life we have 10 things if importance to us, 8-9 are ok, 1 -2 may not be good, but we choose to focus on the 1-2 and not the 8-9 things.

User avatar
echograph
Posts: 12
Joined: Wed Aug 01, 2012 10:14 pm

Re: In need of a mentor.

Post by echograph » Mon Aug 13, 2012 10:24 pm

waimengwan wrote:Also in life we have 10 things if importance to us, 8-9 are ok, 1 -2 may not be good, but we choose to focus on the 1-2 and not the 8-9 things.

Thats true. When something bad happens to us, we always say "why me?" but fortunate events dont come to us as a surprise as much as unfortunate ones. for example when we win something we never ask "why me?"

User avatar
waimengwan
Posts: 159
Joined: Thu Jul 12, 2012 2:22 am

Re: In need of a mentor.

Post by waimengwan » Wed Aug 15, 2012 6:23 pm

Yes I learnt this from Ajahn Brahm. Very profound advice.

User avatar
echograph
Posts: 12
Joined: Wed Aug 01, 2012 10:14 pm

Re: In need of a mentor.

Post by echograph » Thu Aug 16, 2012 1:07 am

waimengwan wrote:Yes I learnt this from Ajahn Brahm. Very profound advice.

I have recently started leaning a lot from Ajahn Brahm. He explained Karma better than I expected. I enjoy his use of humor and simple examples
to explain complex subjects. I cant explain the level of peace I feel, just by hearing his voice. :clap:

User avatar
Caraka
Posts: 89
Joined: Mon Jul 30, 2012 9:01 am

Re: In need of a mentor.

Post by Caraka » Thu Aug 16, 2012 7:42 pm

Thank you for guiding me towards Ajahn Brahm.
:namaste:

User avatar
echograph
Posts: 12
Joined: Wed Aug 01, 2012 10:14 pm

Re: In need of a mentor.

Post by echograph » Thu Aug 16, 2012 11:35 pm

Caraka wrote:Thank you for guiding me towards Ajahn Brahm.
:namaste:
That's exactly how I feel. And I owe it to LonesomeYogurt. He/she noticed how Karma is sometimes misrepresented, and guided me towards him.
I can easily say his words are the best thing that happened to me in my search for inner peace. I understand its not easy, and no one said it would be. I have been working hard to forgive the ones who hurt me and try to kill anger. Since I tried to forgive, my anger extinguished and I feel a little better everyday. :bow:

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 51 guests