Selling medicine marijuana, is it violate the 5th precept

Buddhist ethical conduct including the Five Precepts (Pañcasikkhāpada), and Eightfold Ethical Conduct (Aṭṭhasīla).
danieLion
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Re: Selling medicine marijuana, is it violate the 5th precept

Post by danieLion »

Bhikkhu Bodhi said he takes several medications to manage his chronic pain, and I've no doubt some of them have intoxicating effects.

So, the question goes to intent, then, doesn't it? If one sells with intent to help (or consumes cannabis with intent to relieve pain) it's not a precept violation.

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Daniel
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manas
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Re: Selling medicine marijuana, is it violate the 5th precept

Post by manas »

Some over-the-counter pharmaceutical drugs are much more harmful than marijuana, but no one bats an eyelid about them being given to anyone, even young children. For example, there is enough paracetamol in a standard pack of 'panadol' tablets (a common pain reliever) to destroy an adult liver. Of course there are instructions to not exceed the correct dosage, but this is just one example of a drug that is considered 'ok' to be sold everywhere, but, that if misused, could cause death. So I can't see what the big deal is about using marijuana medically. One thing in it's favour is that, even when misused, it kills a negligible amount of people as compared with many other drugs. (Last I heard, there were actually zero recorded cases of natural marijuana causing death, as compared with alcohol's millions of deaths per year, for example). And in case anyone thinks I am an apologist for weed, I'm not; because while it doesn't actually kill anyone directly, it does, over the long-term, reduce a person's intelligence, motivation and mindfulness, and is best avoided if possible. So of course I would never advocate marijuana being used for recreational purposes...only medical.

:anjali:
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danieLion
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Re: Selling medicine marijuana, is it violate the 5th precept

Post by danieLion »

manas wrote:For example, there is enough paracetamol in a standard pack of 'panadol' tablets (a common pain reliever) to destroy an adult liver. Of course there are instructions to not exceed the correct dosage, but this is just one example of a drug that is considered 'ok' to be sold everywhere, but, that if misused, could cause death. So I can't see what the big deal is about using marijuana medically.
Doctors around here love to prescribe medical pot on account of it's one of the only substances they can prescribe that doesn't come with a possible side effect OF DEATH!
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Daniel
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Annapurna
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Re: Selling medicine marijuana, is it violate the 5th precept

Post by Annapurna »

Medical Marijuana is available here for prescription as well, for instance for Tourrette Syndrome.

The user has to carry a certificate for the police why he is allowed to carry Marijuana with him.

I watched a documentary about a man with Tourrette who can lead an almost normal life with Marijuana, an effect that is not obtained with other medication.

His intention is not to become high, but to be free of the symptoms of his illness. Also, I think I recall he doesn't get high, just loses the tics.
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marc108
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Re: Selling medicine marijuana, is it violate the 5th precept

Post by marc108 »

i really believe this depends how each state handles it. if it's being sold for legitimate medicinal reasons (which there are few) and properly regulated marijuana is no different than other drugs or herbs that are intoxicants if abused.

where i live in California, medical marijuana is a joke... you can get a license for use here as long as you have 30 minutes and 50$. i would think that selling marijuana at most American dispensaries would be wrong livelihood.
"It's easy for us to connect with what's wrong with us... and not so easy to feel into, or to allow us, to connect with what's right and what's good in us."
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LonesomeYogurt
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Re: Selling medicine marijuana, is it violate the 5th precept

Post by LonesomeYogurt »

bodom wrote:What about narcotic pain relievers sold by pharmacists?

: anjali:
I think there's a difference between selling drugs that, while occasionally used for intoxication, are designed specifically to treat serious diseases and selling plants that, while occasionally used for serious diseases, are designed specifically for intoxication.

I don't doubt that marijuana can help people with pain, and I would never mean to criticize a cancer patient or AIDS victim for using intoxicants in such a way - however, coming from a medical marijuana state, I can definitely say with confidence that many people, perhaps the majority, use these dispensaries for vague ailments like "anxiety" or "back pain" in order to legally obtain marijuana for smoking in a recreational manner. I've heard the same from the dispensary owners, who are good people, but on the whole they seem to be far more interested in just getting cannabis to people. I remember a quote from a man who ran one near Seattle, and he said that he would be able to run any kind of real business if he could only deal with people who had legitimate health issues that marijuana could alleviate.

If you work at a dispensary, you are going to sell quite a bit of marijuana to people who will use it for unwholesome purposes. I think that's what it comes down to. It might not be your job to examine other people's motivations, but I don't know if it's wholesome to sell something that can be so easily and inevitably misused and then claim that you have no culpability because you couldn't be absolutely sure they were without the best intentions.


I may have been premature to claim that it is a violation of right livelihood. That's your decision to make. I certainly, however, I would stay away from such industries. I don't mean to sound holier than thou at all, it's just something that strikes me in a weird way. I'm sure you could hold a position there and, with the right intentions, not harm your practice.
Gain and loss, status and disgrace,
censure and praise, pleasure and pain:
these conditions among human beings are inconstant,
impermanent, subject to change.

Knowing this, the wise person, mindful,
ponders these changing conditions.
Desirable things don’t charm the mind,
undesirable ones bring no resistance.

His welcoming and rebelling are scattered,
gone to their end,
do not exist.
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manas
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Re: Selling medicine marijuana, is it violate the 5th precept

Post by manas »

danieLion wrote:
manas wrote:For example, there is enough paracetamol in a standard pack of 'panadol' tablets (a common pain reliever) to destroy an adult liver. Of course there are instructions to not exceed the correct dosage, but this is just one example of a drug that is considered 'ok' to be sold everywhere, but, that if misused, could cause death. So I can't see what the big deal is about using marijuana medically.
Doctors around here love to prescribe medical pot on account of it's one of the only substances they can prescribe that doesn't come with a possible side effect OF DEATH!
Best,
Daniel
Yes, that is a rather nasty possible side effect of many drugs peddled by Big Pharma.

manas :anjali:
To the Buddha-refuge i go; to the Dhamma-refuge i go; to the Sangha-refuge i go.
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Re: Selling medicine marijuana, is it violate the 5th precept

Post by Annapurna »

marc108 wrote:i really believe this depends how each state handles it. if it's being sold for legitimate medicinal reasons (which there are few) and properly regulated marijuana is no different than other drugs or herbs that are intoxicants if abused.

where i live in California, medical marijuana is a joke... you can get a license for use here as long as you have 30 minutes and 50$. i would think that selling marijuana at most American dispensaries would be wrong livelihood.
Yes, it depends.

Cannabis is illegal here, so you need a prescription from a MD and he has to justify his choice and the patient has to buy it in a pharmacy and carry a permission to show to the police, in case a police dogs sniffs the scent and barks him down and stuff.

To sell that as a pharmacist is not wrong livelihood, it's providing medicine and happens very, very rarely.

Likewise, medicine that contains some alcohol is not an intoxicant, where you get drunk and heedless from, but you take a few drops to help you with an illness.

Neither wrong livelihood to produce, nor, to pass it on to a patient.

INTENTION...PURPOSE....
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Caraka
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Re: Selling medicine marijuana, is it violate the 5th precept

Post by Caraka »

Funny how you can replace marijuana with gun or other objects, and have exact same discussion. :tongue:

I would like to ask you to think of why the 5 percepts was defined, what do you think was the goal? The reason behind?
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Re: Selling medicine marijuana, is it violate the 5th precept

Post by DNS »

Caraka wrote:Funny how you can replace marijuana with gun or other objects, and have exact same discussion. :tongue:

I would like to ask you to think of why the 5 percepts was defined, what do you think was the goal? The reason behind?
This is true, how it is related to similar debates about guns, meat, etc. (One person might purchase a gun to kill and another might use a gun strictly for Olympic style paper target shooting.) This is because in Buddhism it is about intention. This is what separates Buddhism from Jainism. In Jainism these things might be considered bad in all possible ways with no flexibility even for intention.

The precepts are for the goal of liberation, but along the way we might get sick, we might still be an ordinary worldling, and engage in some activities that a liberated person may not do, including sexual relations. Even monks are allowed to take medicine. The intention is for getting well, sustaining the body, not for recreation.
danieLion
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Re: Selling medicine marijuana, is it violate the 5th precept

Post by danieLion »

marc108 wrote:i really believe this depends how each state handles it. if it's being sold for legitimate medicinal reasons (which there are few) and properly regulated marijuana is no different than other drugs or herbs that are intoxicants if abused.

where i live in California, medical marijuana is a joke... you can get a license for use here as long as you have 30 minutes and 50$. i would think that selling marijuana at most American dispensaries would be wrong livelihood.
Hi marc108,
The "one bad apple" argument has never been a good reason to illegalize anything with medicinal properties, even if the one bad apple is a bunch of pot-heads in California.
Best,
Daniel
danieLion
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Re: Selling medicine marijuana, is it violate the 5th precept

Post by danieLion »

manas wrote:
danieLion wrote:
manas wrote:For example, there is enough paracetamol in a standard pack of 'panadol' tablets (a common pain reliever) to destroy an adult liver. Of course there are instructions to not exceed the correct dosage, but this is just one example of a drug that is considered 'ok' to be sold everywhere, but, that if misused, could cause death. So I can't see what the big deal is about using marijuana medically.
Doctors around here love to prescribe medical pot on account of it's one of the only substances they can prescribe that doesn't come with a possible side effect OF DEATH!
Best,
Daniel
Yes, that is a rather nasty possible side effect of many drugs peddled by Big Pharma.

manas :anjali:
Antidepressants are intoxicants, yet the Buddhists who admit to using them never, AFIK, bring their use up as a fifth precept violation! Antidepressants are as addictive if not more addictive than opiates, and way more addictive than cannabis. The list of anti-depressant side effects is astonishing. They're very seductive because they can bring some relief, but what they do to the brain with long-term use is scary.

Point: if antidepressants were as great as your pharmaceutically indoctrinated physicians and television commercials claim, they wouldn't keep coming out with new ones.
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Daniel
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marc108
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Re: Selling medicine marijuana, is it violate the 5th precept

Post by marc108 »

danieLion wrote:
marc108 wrote:i really believe this depends how each state handles it. if it's being sold for legitimate medicinal reasons (which there are few) and properly regulated marijuana is no different than other drugs or herbs that are intoxicants if abused.

where i live in California, medical marijuana is a joke... you can get a license for use here as long as you have 30 minutes and 50$. i would think that selling marijuana at most American dispensaries would be wrong livelihood.
Hi marc108,
The "one bad apple" argument has never been a good reason to illegalize anything with medicinal properties, even if the one bad apple is a bunch of pot-heads in California.
Best,
Daniel

I'm all for the use of cannabis medicinally. I think the restriction of any safe substance for medicinal use is grotesque! I just think in order for it to become accepted as medicine, it will have to be regulated with the same level of seriousness as other drugs. You can't even buy a standardized alcohol tincture here!
"It's easy for us to connect with what's wrong with us... and not so easy to feel into, or to allow us, to connect with what's right and what's good in us."
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Re: Selling medicine marijuana, is it violate the 5th precept

Post by Annapurna »

Caraka wrote:Funny how you can replace marijuana with gun or other objects, and have exact same discussion. :tongue:

I would like to ask you to think of why the 5 percepts was defined, what do you think was the goal? The reason behind?
To avoid doing harm to others and thus-oneself via karmic repercussion.
Thus enabling to exit the wheel or rebirth.

Here are some links about medical Cannabis.

http://www.google.de/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=& ... VtFx8Y1QrQ" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Selling medicine marijuana, is it violate the 5th precept

Post by Annapurna »

Marc, try this link by all means. There is a standardized medicine....
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