Re: The Buddha/arahants/jhana and pain

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
Spiny Norman
Posts: 10157
Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:32 am
Location: Andromeda looks nice

Re: The Buddha/arahants/jhana and pain

Post by Spiny Norman »

danieLion wrote:
marc108 wrote:are you talking about like daily relation to pain or cessation of pain from sense withdrawl in Samadhi.
Is there a practical difference?
I think there is. Leaving aside the question of possible pain relief from being in jhana, would the experience of physical pain be dukkha for a Buddha? I'm still not clear.
Buddha save me from new-agers!
santa100
Posts: 6811
Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2011 10:55 pm

Re: The Buddha/arahants/jhana and pain

Post by santa100 »

Porpoise wrote:
"would the experience of physical pain be dukkha for a Buddha? I'm still not clear."

The Buddha has transcended all ego notion of "I", "mine", and "myself" so although there's a physical body that experienced painful feeling, there's no "Buddha" who is subjected to dukkha ( or to be more accurate, "not Buddha", "not Buddha's", and "not the Buddha himself")..
User avatar
DarwidHalim
Posts: 537
Joined: Thu Sep 08, 2011 11:49 am
Location: Neither Samsara nor Nirvana

Re: The Buddha/arahants/jhana and pain

Post by DarwidHalim »

The power of sAmadhi indeed can eliminate the pain that we feel now.

But we should note here that samadhi cannot remove dukka, although samadhi can remove tha physical pain.

There is a big difference here between freeing yourself from pain because you avoid your attention to it, and freeing your pain because you know the nature of it.

Buddha does not free from physical pain because he change his attention to it. But, he is free from pain because he can see the pain is not his.

When we do a meditation, your leg can pain.

There are two ways to remove that.
1. Don't put attention on it and shift your focus on our object. (samadhi's way)
2. Understanding that nature of the pain as not yours. (vipassana's way)

Another example is if I tell you someone just die and her relative is in deep schock and pain. You will say "oh that is very normal as a human". You have no pain here. Why? Because that pain is not yours.

But if suddenly, I tell you, that someone is your only son. Do you think the pain that you are free previously can make you free from pain now?
Most of us just cannot bear it. For sure, you will be deeply in pain. Why? You will think because my only son die, now I am in pain. But actually that is not the answer. You are in pain because now due to your strong attachment, you make that pain as yours.

Buddha did express in the Sutta that he has headache. He has back pain, etc, whether that is in arrow Sutta, or whatever Sutta.
If this statement give you an impression that Buddha did experience pain, you have gone to far. Because you forget something very important in his teaching that Buddha doesn't have any attachment at every second. He can see very clearly thy every pain is not his. He said this many times in the Sutta that this or that is not yours.

Sometimes, we jump the gun to quickly without seeing the whole structure of Dhamma and conclude Buddha then still subject to pain.

Hang on.

Does he know the back pain is his or not?

If he is never ever away from this wisdom, no matter how you think budhha just cannot be in dukka.

For us that is dukka. But if because of this, we also think that Buddha is in dukka, we have jump the gun too quickly.

We cannot compare something who still see this as yours and someone who no longer see this as yours.

Really, saying Buddha is in pain is a joke. Someone who can see this as not yours doesn't have pain even you cut him 1000 pieces.
I am not here nor there.
I am not right nor wrong.
I do not exist neither non-exist.
I am not I nor non-I.
I am not in samsara nor nirvana.
To All Buddhas, I bow down for the teaching of emptiness. Thank You!
danieLion
Posts: 1947
Joined: Wed May 25, 2011 4:49 am

Re: The Buddha/arahants/jhana and pain

Post by danieLion »

DarwidHalim wrote:Buddha did express in the Sutta that he has headache. He has back pain, etc, whether that is in arrow Sutta, or whatever Sutta.
If this statement give you an impression that Buddha did experience pain, you have gone to far.
Hi DarwidHalim,
That depends on what you mean by "experience".
Best,
Daniel
danieLion
Posts: 1947
Joined: Wed May 25, 2011 4:49 am

Re: The Buddha/arahants/jhana and pain

Post by danieLion »

daverupa wrote:I think that septuagenarian homeless people wandering a jungle were in tune with some fairly wild pain experiences, which are for the most part unheard of in first-world places today. It's troublesome to assess....

...I would conclude that jhana can be attained from states of moderate pain and also moderate pleasure (those householders who could do jhana showcase this aspect), but too much either way and it's an insurmountable barrier. Whether this chronic pain or that chronic pain fits the bill is a matter of differing mileage.

:heart:
Hi Dave,
That's a lot to think about--and I will think about it. I don't say this to flatter, but you're one of those people rare to me who's actually able to make me go, "Hmm. I never thought of it like that."
:heart:
danieLion
Posts: 1947
Joined: Wed May 25, 2011 4:49 am

Re: The Buddha/arahants/jhana and pain

Post by danieLion »

ancientbuddhism wrote:With reference to vedanā, I apologize that I was not careful to give vedanā the distinction it is given in the pāḷi ekaccānaṃ ~ as ‘certain’ or ‘particular’ (nor did I give cetosamādhi its distinction as ‘signless’ animitta, for that matter). Below is B. Bodhi’s variant reading at SN. 47.9:
  • Yasmiṃ ānanda, samaye tathāgato sabbanimittānaṃ amanasikārā ekaccānaṃ vedanānaṃ nirodhā animittaṃ cetosamādhiṃ upasampajja viharati. Phāsutaraṃ ānanda, tasmiṃ samaye tathāgatassa hoti. (PTS – 154)

    “Whenever, Ānanda, by nonattention to all signs and by the cessation of certain feelings, the Tathāgata enters and dwells in the signless concentration of mind, on that occasion, Ānanda, the body of the Tathāgata is more comfortable.”
With reference to the context of ‘certain’ vedanā as with ill-feelings in these readings, this would seem to give this use of jhāna a particularly medicinal or palliative distinction. This, considered with the more often found pericope on jhāna mastery e.g.:
  • ‘…catunnaṃ jhānānaṃ ābhicetasikānaṃ diṭṭhadhammasukhavihārānaṃ nikāmalābhī akicchalābhī akasiralābhī’

    “One easily attains the four Jhānas as he wishes, without pain or difficulty, a pleasant abiding known now.” – AN. 4.35
…may indicate jhāna as having a wider range of use and benefits?
Thanks AB
User avatar
DarwidHalim
Posts: 537
Joined: Thu Sep 08, 2011 11:49 am
Location: Neither Samsara nor Nirvana

Re: The Buddha/arahants/jhana and pain

Post by DarwidHalim »

Pain or not pain really comes how we approach that event.

We can see that for someone who like to go to the beach for the sun bath.

Same event.

For this person, that experience is a joy.
For that person, that experience is a pain.

So, the key here is - it is not the event that govern someone is in pain or not. But, it is your reaction into it.

If you like that event - you say that is joy.
If you don't like that event, you say that is pain.

But,
if you have this attitude that make you see that event is not yours - you are in the state of indifferent.

You are not in joy. You are also not in pain.

This indifferent feeling for the event can rise peace and bliss.

If this is hard to be understood, you should give it a try when you experience pain in your leg during meditation. The more you can deeply realize that pain is not yours, the more you can stay friendly with that event. Because of that, you no longer can say that event as pain, because you don't see any reason to reject it, you also don't see any reason to accept it.

There is absolutely no single dot of wish to remove that sensation in your leg.
There is also absolutely no single dot of wish to accept that sensation in your leg.

It is just like that at the end.
I am not here nor there.
I am not right nor wrong.
I do not exist neither non-exist.
I am not I nor non-I.
I am not in samsara nor nirvana.
To All Buddhas, I bow down for the teaching of emptiness. Thank You!
Spiny Norman
Posts: 10157
Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:32 am
Location: Andromeda looks nice

Re: The Buddha/arahants/jhana and pain

Post by Spiny Norman »

santa100 wrote:Porpoise wrote:
"would the experience of physical pain be dukkha for a Buddha? I'm still not clear."

The Buddha has transcended all ego notion of "I", "mine", and "myself" so although there's a physical body that experienced painful feeling, there's no "Buddha" who is subjected to dukkha ( or to be more accurate, "not Buddha", "not Buddha's", and "not the Buddha himself")..
But there is still the experience of physical pain, unpleasant vedana. Is that not dukkha?
Buddha save me from new-agers!
User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 19941
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: Aotearoa, New Zealand

Re: The Buddha/arahants/jhana and pain

Post by mikenz66 »

porpoise wrote: But there is still the experience of physical pain, unpleasant vedana. Is that not dukkha?
Sutta Study this week on three types of Dukkha:
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... ead#unread" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

:anjali:
Mike
Spiny Norman
Posts: 10157
Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:32 am
Location: Andromeda looks nice

Re: The Buddha/arahants/jhana and pain

Post by Spiny Norman »

DarwidHalim wrote:Pain or not pain really comes how we approach that event.
The more you can deeply realize that pain is not yours, the more you can stay friendly with that event. Because of that, you no longer can say that event as pain, because you don't see any reason to reject it, you also don't see any reason to accept it.
But the Arrow Sutta makes a clear distinction between physical pain ( 1st arrow ) and mental pain ( 2nd arrow ), and you seem just to be talking about the 2nd arrow here, mental pain. But the simile of being pierced by arrows or darts makes it clear that both these experiences are painful.
Buddha save me from new-agers!
Spiny Norman
Posts: 10157
Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:32 am
Location: Andromeda looks nice

Re: The Buddha/arahants/jhana and pain

Post by Spiny Norman »

mikenz66 wrote:
porpoise wrote: But there is still the experience of physical pain, unpleasant vedana. Is that not dukkha?
Sutta Study this week on three types of Dukkha:
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... ead#unread" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

:anjali:
Mike
Thanks. I think here we're talking about "intrinsic" suffering due to pain (dukkha-dukkhatā ).
Buddha save me from new-agers!
User avatar
DarwidHalim
Posts: 537
Joined: Thu Sep 08, 2011 11:49 am
Location: Neither Samsara nor Nirvana

Re: The Buddha/arahants/jhana and pain

Post by DarwidHalim »

porpoise wrote: But the Arrow Sutta makes a clear distinction between physical pain ( 1st arrow ) and mental pain ( 2nd arrow ), and you seem just to be talking about the 2nd arrow here, mental pain. But the simile of being pierced by arrows or darts makes it clear that both these experiences are painful.
Physical pain is also defined by this mind.

If your mind say this physical sensation as pain, then it becomes pain, unique to your mindset.
If your mind say this physical sensation as joy, then it becomes joy, unique to your mindset.

Just about physical sensation you get after exercise.
For some, who don't like that sensation, it is pain.
For others, who like that sensation, it is joy.

Another example is you eat hot and spicy chilly.
For some, the burning sensation is pain.
FOr others, that burning sensation is joy.

So, what is the actual value for that burning sensation? Is it joy or pain?

We should learn to eliminate the layer of concept on the sensation. When you do that, you will then know this is just sensation that can be named as any thing you want.

The actual value is up to you to define.

In buddhist concept, this is said that there is nothing intrinsic in anything you think.

Because if there is something intrinsic, no one will have different idea. The intrinsic thing will make all people in the whole 6 level of samsara have exactly same opinion like what you have.

If the burning sensation of eating chilly is joy and if that burning sensation has an intrinsic value, then the whole world will have same opinion that is joy. Even you give a chilli to your dog, you dog must be in joy. But, is there such thing?

Is headache a pain?
Is backache a pain?

They are just sensation that you label as pain.

In reality, it is just sensation. Nothing more, nothing less.

When you do a meditation, your leg can be extremely painful. But, when you your wisdom of "this is not mine" is also extremely strong, that painful sensation will just be sensation. Nothing more, nothing less.

You are talking about intrinsic pain and you think there is such thing. So, you may need to think about it again.

If there is such thing called intrinsic, why these people can see the same event like this, and those people see that event like that?
Since there is something intrinsic, all people must think the same think for the same event. But, why in reality it doesn't happen?
Is there such thing called intrinsic?

Regarding this arrow sutta. You need to ask this question:
For human who still have dualistic mind, of course there is a physical and mental pain.
But, if that human doesn't have dualistic mind, if that human can see "this is not mine", is it still correct to get the conclusion that there is also a physical and mental pain for these special beings?
I am not here nor there.
I am not right nor wrong.
I do not exist neither non-exist.
I am not I nor non-I.
I am not in samsara nor nirvana.
To All Buddhas, I bow down for the teaching of emptiness. Thank You!
Spiny Norman
Posts: 10157
Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:32 am
Location: Andromeda looks nice

Re: The Buddha/arahants/jhana and pain

Post by Spiny Norman »

DarwidHalim wrote:
porpoise wrote: But the Arrow Sutta makes a clear distinction between physical pain ( 1st arrow ) and mental pain ( 2nd arrow ), and you seem just to be talking about the 2nd arrow here, mental pain. But the simile of being pierced by arrows or darts makes it clear that both these experiences are painful.
You are talking about intrinsic pain and you think there is such thing. So, you may need to think about it again.
So are you saying that unpleasant physical vedana is solely a matter of mental perception? Why then is there the traditional distinction between mental and physical vedana, a distinction confirmed above in the Arrow Sutta?
Buddha save me from new-agers!
User avatar
DarwidHalim
Posts: 537
Joined: Thu Sep 08, 2011 11:49 am
Location: Neither Samsara nor Nirvana

Re: The Buddha/arahants/jhana and pain

Post by DarwidHalim »

Such thing can be valid.

But valid for who? Dualistic (conceptual) mind like us.

They are not valid for someone who can see everything is not him or hers.
I am not here nor there.
I am not right nor wrong.
I do not exist neither non-exist.
I am not I nor non-I.
I am not in samsara nor nirvana.
To All Buddhas, I bow down for the teaching of emptiness. Thank You!
User avatar
kirk5a
Posts: 1959
Joined: Thu Sep 23, 2010 1:51 pm

Re: The Buddha/arahants/jhana and pain

Post by kirk5a »

DarwidHalim wrote: They are just sensation that you label as pain.

In reality, it is just sensation. Nothing more, nothing less.
"Sensation" is also a label.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
Post Reply