"The Deathless" (amata)

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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Post by retrofuturist » Tue Aug 07, 2012 2:47 am

Greetings,
daverupa wrote:....

Would you agree?
Good observations. When there is no accumulation, there is no experience to which jati-marana could apply.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Post by kirk5a » Tue Aug 07, 2012 2:52 am

My interlocutors keep trying to ground this conversation on "thing" even though I have not staked some position on "thing."
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Post by tiltbillings » Tue Aug 07, 2012 2:56 am

kirk5a wrote:My interlocutors keep trying to ground this conversation on "thing" even though I have not staked some position on "thing."
Part of the problem is that you do not answer questions put to you so that we can better understand your point of view. You have refused to discuss "nibbana does exist," and then you use language that suggests that nibbana is a thing. So, what conclusions should we draw from that?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Post by kirk5a » Tue Aug 07, 2012 3:06 am

tiltbillings wrote:
kirk5a wrote:My interlocutors keep trying to ground this conversation on "thing" even though I have not staked some position on "thing."
Par of the problem is that you do not answer questions put to you so that we can better understand your point of view. You have refused to discuss "nibbana does exist," and then you use language that suggests that nibbana is a thing. So, what conclusions should we draw from that?
Define "thing" if you're so insistent about using the term. It's not a term I have staked a position on.

And I haven't refused to discuss what Ven. Nagasena meant by "nibbana does exist" - I encouraged participants to go read the context and see if there is more information forthcoming from the one who said it, and we could talk about that. Maybe in another thread.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Post by tiltbillings » Tue Aug 07, 2012 3:45 am

kirk5a wrote: And I haven't refused to discuss what Ven. Nagasena meant by "nibbana does exist"
http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... 2&#p199292" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Post by kirk5a » Tue Aug 07, 2012 3:55 am

tiltbillings wrote:
kirk5a wrote: And I haven't refused to discuss what Ven. Nagasena meant by "nibbana does exist"
http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... 2&#p199292" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The right way to talk about something spoken by a Venerable would be to read what else he said, and discuss whatever else might apply. Not repeated badgering of me, trying to get me to be beholden to "nibbana does exist" and justify, expand and explain that statement to your satisfaction.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Post by tiltbillings » Tue Aug 07, 2012 4:12 am

kirk5a wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
kirk5a wrote: And I haven't refused to discuss what Ven. Nagasena meant by "nibbana does exist"
http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... 2&#p199292" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The right way to talk about something spoken by a Venerable would be to read what else he said, and discuss whatever else might apply. Not repeated badgering of me, trying to get me to be beholden to "nibbana does exist" and justify, expand and explain that statement to your satisfaction.
Well, you are the one who put it out there. If you can not discuss or make sense of it, then may be you do not undederstand what it means.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Post by tiltbillings » Tue Aug 07, 2012 4:55 am

daverupa wrote: This would mean that a liberated mind can be perceived, but not a thing 'liberation'. So, too, one perceives a nibbanized mind, but not a thing 'nibbana'. (Both sentences have the same meaning, of course.)
And, of course, there is no "the mind" to be perceived.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Post by daverupa » Tue Aug 07, 2012 10:42 am

tiltbillings wrote:
daverupa wrote: This would mean that a liberated mind can be perceived, but not a thing 'liberation'. So, too, one perceives a nibbanized mind, but not a thing 'nibbana'. (Both sentences have the same meaning, of course.)
And, of course, there is no "the mind" to be perceived.
Well, it would be that greed/hatred/delusion have ceased, ahead of & precipitating the final breakup of the aggregates, yes?

It's noting a lack, not noting "A-ha! Look there: a 'lack' has appeared."
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]

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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Post by tiltbillings » Tue Aug 07, 2012 2:12 pm

daverupa wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
daverupa wrote: This would mean that a liberated mind can be perceived, but not a thing 'liberation'. So, too, one perceives a nibbanized mind, but not a thing 'nibbana'. (Both sentences have the same meaning, of course.)
And, of course, there is no "the mind" to be perceived.
Well, it would be that greed/hatred/delusion have ceased, ahead of & precipitating the final breakup of the aggregates, yes?

It's noting a lack, not noting "A-ha! Look there: a 'lack' has appeared."
The core idea that I have trying to get at with all this is the Dhamma is not about things, objects, substances, identities. When one talks about "the Deathless" something is seriously lost. It suggests, intentionally or not, that there is some substantial, objective "Truth" out there that we can get. The Buddha suggests something radically different from that in terms of seeing what we are in terms of experiential process. There is a reason why the Buddha said: Who sees paticcasamuppada sees Dhamma, who sees Dhamma sees paticcasamuppda. - MN 1 190-1. Truth/Dhamma is to be seen/known/experienced in terms of the experiential process that we are, and nowhere else.
  • SN 2.26: It is in this very fathom-long physical frame with its perceptions and mind, that, I declare, lies the world, and the arising of the world, and the cessation of the world, and the path leading to the cessation of the world. [26]
    • 26.The import of this significant declaration can be understood in the context of those suttas in which the Buddha defines the concept of the world. The 'world,' for the Buddha, arises in the six sense-spheres (See above Note 21). Hence its cessation too, is to be experienced there, in the cessation of the six sense-spheres (salaayatananirodha). "I will teach you, monks, how the world comes to be and passes away... What monks, is the arising of the world? Dependent on eye and forms, arises visual consciousness. The concurrence of the three is contact. Conditioned by contact is feeling. Conditioned by feeling, craving. Conditioned by craving, grasping. Conditioned by grasping, becoming. Conditioned by becoming, birth. And conditioned by birth, arise decay, death, grief lamentation, suffering, despair. This is the arising of the world.
      And what, monks, is the passing away of the world? Dependent on the eye and forms arise visual consciousness. The concurrence of the three is contact. Conditioned by contact is feeling. Conditioned by feeling is craving. By the utter fading away and cessation of that craving, grasping ceases, by the ceasing of grasping, becoming ceases, by the ceasing of becoming birth ceases, by the ceasing of birth, decay-and-death, grief, lamentation, suffering, despair, cease. Such is the ceasing of this entire man
      [sic; should be 'mass'] of Ill." -- SN ii 73 CDB i 581
      http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... passage-10" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
      http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... tml#fnt-26" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
    • "Monks, I will teach you the all. And what is the all? The eye and forms, the ear and sounds the nose and odors, the tongue and tastes, the body and touch, the mind and mental phenomena. This is called the all. If anyone, monks, should speak thus: ' Having rejected this all, I shall make known another all' - that would be a mere empty boast." SN IV 15.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Post by kirk5a » Tue Aug 07, 2012 2:33 pm

tiltbillings wrote:The core idea that I have trying to get at with all this is the Dhamma is not about things, objects, substances, identities.
...
Truth/Dhamma is to be seen/known/experienced in terms of the experiential process that we are, and nowhere else.
That is identification.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Post by tiltbillings » Tue Aug 07, 2012 3:03 pm

kirk5a wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:The core idea that I have trying to get at with all this is the Dhamma is not about things, objects, substances, identities.
...
Truth/Dhamma is to be seen/known/experienced in terms of the experiential process that we are, and nowhere else.
That is identification.
Oh, please. I'd ask you to show how that use of conventional language is "identification," but likely you will refuse, as you so often have refused to engage in discussion of what is said, but you do like to throw out the brickbats. I'll rephrase:

Truth/Dhamma is to be seen/known/experienced in terms of the experiential process of conditioned co-production/paticcasamuppada, and nowhere else.
  • Who sees paticcasamuppada sees Dhamma, who sees Dhamma sees paticcasamuppda. - MN 1 190-1
  • SN 2.26: It is in this very fathom-long physical frame with its perceptions and mind, that, I declare, lies the world, and the arising of the world, and the cessation of the world, and the path leading to the cessation of the world. 26
    • 26.The import of this significant declaration can be understood in the context of those suttas in which the Buddha defines the concept of the world. The 'world,' for the Buddha, arises in the six sense-spheres (See above Note 21). Hence its cessation too, is to be experienced there, in the cessation of the six sense-spheres (salaayatananirodha). "I will teach you, monks, how the world comes to be and passes away... What monks, is the arising of the world? Dependent on eye and forms, arises visual consciousness. The concurrence of the three is contact. Conditioned by contact is feeling. Conditioned by feeling, craving. Conditioned by craving, grasping. Conditioned by grasping, becoming. Conditioned by becoming, birth. And conditioned by birth, arise decay, death, grief lamentation, suffering, despair. This is the arising of the world.

      And what, monks, is the passing away of the world? Dependent on the eye and forms arise visual consciousness. The concurrence of the three is contact. Conditioned by contact is feeling. Conditioned by feeling is craving. By the utter fading away and cessation of that craving, grasping ceases, by the ceasing of grasping, becoming ceases, by the ceasing of becoming birth ceases, by the ceasing of birth, decay-and-death, grief, lamentation, suffering, despair, cease. Such is the ceasing of this entire man
      [sic; should be 'mass'] of Ill."
      [-- SN ii 73 CDB i 581]
      http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... passage-10" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
      http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... tml#fnt-26" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
  • "Monks, I will teach you the all. And what is the all? The eye and forms, the ear and sounds the nose and odors, the tongue and tastes, the body and touch, the mind and mental phenomena. This is called the all. If anyone, monks, should speak thus: ' Having rejected this all, I shall make known another all' - that would be a mere empty boast." SN IV 15.
  • ". . . the perception of impermanence should be cultivated for the removal of the conceit 'I am.' For when one perceives impermanence, Meghiya, the perception of not-self is established. When one perceives not-self one reaches the removal of the conceit 'I am,' which is called Nibbana here and now." U iv 1.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Post by kirk5a » Tue Aug 07, 2012 3:59 pm

tiltbillings wrote:Oh, please. I'd ask you to show how that use of conventional language is "identification," but likely you will refuse, as you so often have refused to engage in discussion of what is said, but you do like to throw out the brickbats.
That's for each of us to examine within our own minds, of course, whether we identify with the experiential process of conditioned co-production.
I'll rephrase:

Truth/Dhamma is to be seen/known/experienced in terms of the experiential process of conditioned co-production/paticcasamuppada, and nowhere else.
Paticcasamuppada tells of the cessation of the experiential process.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Post by tiltbillings » Tue Aug 07, 2012 9:59 pm

kirk5a wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Oh, please. I'd ask you to show how that use of conventional language is "identification," but likely you will refuse, as you so often have refused to engage in discussion of what is said, but you do like to throw out the brickbats.
That's for each of us to examine within our own minds, of course, whether we identify with the experiential process of conditioned co-production.
In other words, your brickbat was gratuitous, without substance, not engaging what was said.
  • Who sees paticcasamuppada sees Dhamma, who sees Dhamma sees paticcasamuppda. - MN 1 190-1
The point of this text, which puts what I said into a context which you again ignored, is if we pay attention to, if we see, paticcasamuppada, we will attain bodhi. No identification in that.
kirk wrote:
I'll rephrase:

Truth/Dhamma is to be seen/known/experienced in terms of the experiential process of conditioned co-production/paticcasamuppada, and nowhere else.
Paticcasamuppada tells of the cessation of the experiential process.
So, you are saying that the arahant has no experience after awakening.

MN I 354: My back aches. I will rest it. So, the Buddha was not experiencing an aching back.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Post by kirk5a » Tue Aug 07, 2012 11:04 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
kirk5a wrote: Paticcasamuppada tells of the cessation of the experiential process.
So, you are saying that the arahant has no experience after awakening.

MN I 354: My back aches. I will rest it. So, the Buddha was not experiencing an aching back.
No I am not saying that. Other formulations of paticcasamuppada include the cessation of feeling. Prior to parinibbana, that would necessarily be a temporary state.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

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