Entering Jhana Without Single Object Absorption

[santa100]

Twelph wrote:
"Is there such thing as entering jhana without being absorbed in a single object?"

The stock description of the first jhana: "secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unwholesome states, a monk enters upon and dwells in the first jhana, which is accompanied by applied thought and sustained thought, with rapture and happiness born of seclusion" indicates the existence of an object of meditation for the mind to apply Vitakka and Vicara..

[mikenz66]

I suppose my question would be, is there an issue with developing all of these types of concentration at once?

I think that is often what happens.

However, focussing on different objects does give different results (try it and see!) , and if one were aiming for highly-concentrated jhana states ("pleasant abiding" in the sutta I quoted) then some objects (generally more conceptual ones) are more conducive than others (the "arising & falling away with reference to the five clinging-aggregates", for example, in the same sutta).


Mike

Taking a further look at this sutta, I noticed:

"And what is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents? There is the case where a monk remains focused on arising & falling away with reference to the five clinging-aggregates: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its passing away. Such is feeling, such its origination, such its passing away. Such is perception, such its origination, such its passing away. Such are fabrications, such their origination, such their passing away. Such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.' This is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents.

Is this just having continuous mindfulness and being fully aware of the beginning and end of each object that appears in the mind, aka the third tetrad of the Anapanasati Sutta?

Yes, or in the Satipatthana Sutta, or the Visuddhimagga, or the so-called "vipassana" instructions of many modern teachers.

As I see it, based on experience that is mainly using the Mahasi approach the Satipatthana, Anapanasati, "Gradual Training Suttas" http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=13281" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; and the suttas I quoted above suggest a progression where one uses some objects (breath, motion of abdomen, motion of feet while walking, and so on) to build up concentration and mindfulness with the aim to be able to use that concentration and mindfulness to see the rise and fall of aggregates, etc. A reasonable degree of concentration is probably essential to being able to attempt that.

This focusing on changing objects, as in the sutta above, is described in the Commentaries/Visuddhimagga as "access concentration", and seems to be what U Pandita termed "vipassana jhana".


Mike

[Cittasanto]

there is a text where walking meditation is talked about in relation to the fourth jhana (in this case called the imperturbable) here http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; although I have not looked this further I do believe it won't be full fledged Jhana which can easily be argued as only attainable while sitting silent..., but refering to the qualities of jhana being pressent to the point it can legitimately be called Jhana, yet not to the strength described as Sammasamadhi in the texts, although this list does not discount weaker levels of samadhi whether in its path factor form or training form being right samadhi.

What I'm getting from this is that different aspects of even the higher Jhanas can be experienced in parts, but a Jhana can only be considered completely mastered when all of the classical experiences are witnessed in a single session?

I am not sure if I am reading you correctly, but I would say
the different factors which constitute Jhana can be experienced at different strengths, this could be described as a watered down, but all the factors are present so that the experience can legitimately be called Jhana even if it is not at 100% power.
as an example, a car has a maximum speed of 100mph and to achieve this it uses all its power, and all the mechanical components are working at full; but to go 50mph it does not need all its power so does not use fully the mechanical components but all the same components to achieve 100mph are still in use to achieve the lesser 50mph speed.
it is the same with jhana for full propper Jhana you need the full power, but at lesser power you still need the same equiptment although it can be disputed that it is Jhana proper.
if you didn't have all the jhana factors I would say that was definately not Jhana.

[twelph]

it is the same with jhana for full propper Jhana you need the full power, but at lesser power you still need the same equiptment although it can be disputed that it is Jhana proper.
if you didn't have all the jhana factors I would say that was definately not Jhana.

I was just wondering how the monk in the sutta is able to experience this aspect of 4th jhana called the imperturbable while walking. I think I'm still misunderstanding you, if it's probably not possible to enter jhana unless in the sitting position, how is this monk experiencing the condition of 4th jhana?

Edit: I admit that I might not be properly informed for this conversation, as I have purposely in the past made an effort to avoid reading detailed extrapolations of jhana. I am usually without a teacher, and fear that I may put ideas in my head that my mind will try to recreate in my experience. I feel like I'm on a slippery slope

[santa100]

twelph wrote:
"I was just wondering how the monk in the sutta is able to experience this aspect of 4th jhana called the imperturbable while walking"

Are you sure the monk was "walking" instead of "standing"? To put the body into motion, one would need to breathe oxygen to generate energy for the muscles to move. But one stops breathing at the fourth jhana according to SN36.011 (ref:http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html ):
"And I have also taught the step-by-step cessation of fabrications. When one has attained the first jhana, speech has ceased. When one has attained the second jhana, directed thought & evaluation have ceased. When one has attained the third jhana, rapture has ceased. When one has attained the fourth jhana, in-and-out breathing has ceased"

[twelph]

twelph wrote:
"I was just wondering how the monk in the sutta is able to experience this aspect of 4th jhana called the imperturbable while walking"

Are you sure the monk was "walking" instead of "standing"? To put the body into motion, one would need to breathe oxygen to generate energy for the muscles to move. But one stops breathing at the fourth jhana according to SN36.011 (ref:http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html ):
"And I have also taught the step-by-step cessation of fabrications. When one has attained the first jhana, speech has ceased. When one has attained the second jhana, directed thought & evaluation have ceased. When one has attained the third jhana, rapture has ceased. When one has attained the fourth jhana, in-and-out breathing has ceased"

While practicing walking meditation, my breathe becomes very refined and slow. I am not denying from an outside perspective that in 4th jhana the breathe can not be felt or measured, but that does not necessarily mean the breathe has stopped completely. Strong developers of pranayama are able to be buried alive for days because of how much their breathing has slowed. I'm assuming that mind objects take a considerable amount of energy and therefore oxygen to sustain at a constant pace. It doesn't seem so far fetched that someone could still be in motion while their breathe is seemingly non-existent. Though this is all just speculation, considering all I'm basing this on is a small part of a sutta.

[Cittasanto]

it is the same with jhana for full propper Jhana you need the full power, but at lesser power you still need the same equiptment although it can be disputed that it is Jhana proper.
if you didn't have all the jhana factors I would say that was definately not Jhana.

I was just wondering how the monk in the sutta is able to experience this aspect of 4th jhana called the imperturbable while walking. I think I'm still misunderstanding you, if it's probably not possible to enter jhana unless in the sitting position, how is this monk experiencing the condition of 4th jhana?

Edit: I admit that I might not be properly informed for this conversation, as I have purposely in the past made an effort to avoid reading detailed extrapolations of jhana. I am usually without a teacher, and fear that I may put ideas in my head that my mind will try to recreate in my experience. I feel like I'm on a slippery slope

The factors of Jhana are present, without these being present or the momentum they create it can not be called jhana.

[daverupa]

Twelph wrote:
"Is there such thing as entering jhana without being absorbed in a single object?"

The stock description of the first jhana: "secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unwholesome states, a monk enters upon and dwells in the first jhana, which is accompanied by applied thought and sustained thought, with rapture and happiness born of seclusion" indicates the existence of an object of meditation for the mind to apply Vitakka and Vicara..

However, since it is not yet second jhana's "happiness born of samadhi", and there is no cittekagatta until second jhana either, vitakka-vicara cannot be absorption in a single object to the exclusion of others, can it?

[Cittasanto]

Twelph wrote:
"Is there such thing as entering jhana without being absorbed in a single object?"

The stock description of the first jhana: "secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unwholesome states, a monk enters upon and dwells in the first jhana, which is accompanied by applied thought and sustained thought, with rapture and happiness born of seclusion" indicates the existence of an object of meditation for the mind to apply Vitakka and Vicara..

However, since it is not yet second jhana's "happiness born of samadhi", and there is no cittekagatta until second jhana either, vitakka-vicara cannot be absorption in a single object to the exclusion of others, can it?

hi Dave
just quoting myself from earlier

The first jhāna factors sometimes includes 'cittass'ekaggata' which can be translated as arriving at a unified mind, although it can also be translated as one-pointedness of mind, as-well as calmness of mind, however as cetaso ekodibhāva can also be translated in both ways, and is always used for the second Jhana, it would be reasonable to assume jhana has fixed itself upon the opject hence the dropping away of the verbal fabrications.

the second Jhana has cetaso ekodibhāva

ajjhattaṃ sampasādanaṃ, cetaso ekodibhāvaṃ,
with internal clarity, and one-pointedness of mind,

[daverupa]

Yes, sloppy Pali on my part, I apologize. In any event, I see the roughly three occasions of that fifth factor in first jhana in the MN to be accidental intrusion.

[santa100]

twelph wrote:
"While practicing walking meditation, my breathe becomes very refined and slow. I am not denying from an outside perspective that in 4th jhana the breathe can not be felt or measured, but that does not necessarily mean the breathe has stopped completely. Strong developers of pranayama are able to be buried alive for days because of how much their breathing has slowed. I'm assuming that mind objects take a considerable amount of energy and therefore oxygen to sustain at a constant pace. It doesn't seem so far fetched that someone could still be in motion while their breathe is seemingly non-existent. Though this is all just speculation, considering all I'm basing this on is a small part of a sutta."

The case of yogis being buried alive and survived for days seems possible because they didn't "move" their bodies. I'm not sure about the case of the 'walking' monk though. But if you could provide reference to that sutta that you read, that'd be very helpful..

[santa100]

daverupa wrote:
"In any event, I see the roughly three occasions of that fifth factor in first jhana in the MN to be accidental intrusion."

I think it makes sense that all 5 jhana factors are there in the first jhana. We know that the five hindrances are absent in the first jhana. And I remember Bhikkhu Bodhi in his MN Audio series mentioned that the five jhana factors serve as the antidotes to those hindrances: Applied thought counters Sloth/torpor, Sustained thought counters Doubt, Rapture counters Anger, Happiness counters Restlessness/remorse, and One-pointedness/ekaggata counters Lust; so, if Lust's been absent in the 1st jhana, that'd mean its antidote, ekaggata must be present..

[daverupa]

...so, if Lust's been absent in the 1st jhana, that'd mean its antidote, ekaggata must be present..

Where do we learn that the antidote to lust is ekagatta, again?

[santa100]

It's from the MN Audio lecture series by Bhikkhu Bodhi. It's kind of tough to "search" for the instance through these mp3 files...

http://bodhimonastery.org/a-systematic- ... ikaya.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[mikenz66]

It's from the MN Audio lecture series by Bhikkhu Bodhi. It's kind of tough to "search" for the instance through these mp3 files...

We need that facility that Google now has of searching images to be extended to mp3s...

Perhaps this would give a clue of where to look:

• The Five Mental Hindrances and Their Conquest
  Selected Texts from the Pali Canon and the Commentaries
  compiled and translated by Nyanaponika Thera
  http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... el026.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Mike