blows my mind how many people do not care!

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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johnny
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Re: blows my mind how many people do not care!

Post by johnny » Fri Aug 03, 2012 4:44 pm

James the Giant wrote:
johnny wrote:...but i don't get people who just go through life not practicing anything! they suffer, they cause themselves problems, and it doesn't matter at all too them! ...
Yeah, I don't get it either. I worked with a guy who had no spiritual side to him at all. He was a normal guy, he worked, had a girlfriend, etc, but he didn't wonder about life or reality or soul or spirit or anything. We had some discussions about it, and he just didn't get why I was interested in it.
He didn't see a need for anything like that. I found it very weird!
yeah that's basically what i experience. maybe lucky them? perhaps it's nice too not really think about it!
The time would not pass. Somebody was playing with the clocks, and not only the electronic clocks but the wind-up kind too. The second hand on my watch would twitch once, and a year would pass, and then it would twitch again.
There was nothing I could do about it. As an Earthling I had to believe whatever clocks said -and calendars.”
― Kurt Vonnegut, Slaughterhouse-Five

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johnny
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Re: blows my mind how many people do not care!

Post by johnny » Fri Aug 03, 2012 4:51 pm

Mawkish1983 wrote:I'm not sure why it should perturb you so much.
i'm not sure why, if you don't understand why i am perturbed (enough too create this silly thread), it perturbs you enough that i posted this that you should post such a reply.

if you can say i shouldn't be perturbed, perhaps you shouldn't be perturbed by my thread (enough too post a reply anyway)?

only arahants are perturbed by nothing. we worldlings just endlessly mirror each other.
Last edited by johnny on Fri Aug 03, 2012 5:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The time would not pass. Somebody was playing with the clocks, and not only the electronic clocks but the wind-up kind too. The second hand on my watch would twitch once, and a year would pass, and then it would twitch again.
There was nothing I could do about it. As an Earthling I had to believe whatever clocks said -and calendars.”
― Kurt Vonnegut, Slaughterhouse-Five

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johnny
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Re: blows my mind how many people do not care!

Post by johnny » Fri Aug 03, 2012 4:53 pm

Mawkish1983 wrote:
This Dhamma that I have attained is deep, hard to see, hard to realize... What is abstruse, subtle, deep, hard to see, going against the flow — those delighting in passion, cloaked in the mass of darkness, won't see.
Ayacana Sutta (SN 6.1)

for sure. he wasn't even going too teach at all because of this until bramha asked him too!
The time would not pass. Somebody was playing with the clocks, and not only the electronic clocks but the wind-up kind too. The second hand on my watch would twitch once, and a year would pass, and then it would twitch again.
There was nothing I could do about it. As an Earthling I had to believe whatever clocks said -and calendars.”
― Kurt Vonnegut, Slaughterhouse-Five

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johnny
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Re: blows my mind how many people do not care!

Post by johnny » Fri Aug 03, 2012 5:06 pm

Hickersonia wrote:I'd just chalk it up to these people having too much dust in their eyes... they can't see the benefit, and if we let it bug us it only proves that we are attached to the idea of pushing it on them. Meh...

indeed.i would expect the :shrug: if i babbled on about the four noble truths, escaping samsara, why we must practice the eightfold path, etc. but i'm not even trying too make anyone practice or become a buddhist or anything though. i even try too relate it too the fun loving side that everyone has (talking about jhana, etc.), and the adventurous side (talking about different states of conscoiusness, the sermon of the seven suns AN 7.62 and how similar it is too modern scientific theory, and other crazy interesting suttas, etc.), just too make conversation at work, and it just doesn't fly!

i don't say "are you suffering, friend? perhaps look into buddhism!" i wouldn't even think about being like that. it's usually "what's up man? what are you reading right now? hemingway? sweet! i just read this really interesting sutta that seems too talk about outer space, it's a trip!" and i get: :shrug:


too much dust is probably right.

and don't get me wrong, there are a few people who are interested, one guy i work with thinks it's cool stuff and has borrowed a couple books from me. and another asks questions and shares things about history or science that relate. but mostly, well you know: :shrug:
The time would not pass. Somebody was playing with the clocks, and not only the electronic clocks but the wind-up kind too. The second hand on my watch would twitch once, and a year would pass, and then it would twitch again.
There was nothing I could do about it. As an Earthling I had to believe whatever clocks said -and calendars.”
― Kurt Vonnegut, Slaughterhouse-Five

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johnny
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Re: blows my mind how many people do not care!

Post by johnny » Fri Aug 03, 2012 5:09 pm

SDC wrote:
Hickersonia wrote:I'd just chalk it up to these people having too much dust in their eyes... they can't see the benefit, and if we let it bug us it only proves that we are attached to the idea of pushing it on them. Meh...
Good post.

The way I see it, not understanding why most people do not practice anything, is almost comparable to not understanding why most that do practice Buddhism are not arahants. The spectrum of development is massive. When people are mature enough to develop they seek efficient ways to do it. If they lack that maturity, then they do not look.

A big part of starting to practice is learning what the dhamma is and accepting the idea that development on the path is possible. But even before that one must value and appreciate what will be achieved through the tremendous effort that they must undertake. You have to want to do it! I believe this is the gap that most people cannot cross and have no desire to cross. Even if you explain it to them, most of them will not see the value.
i think "spectrum of development is massive" really sums it up! one can be so far from the dhamma that it doesn't even seem in any way like something that has any value whatsoever, or one could be any where from there too being an arahant!
The time would not pass. Somebody was playing with the clocks, and not only the electronic clocks but the wind-up kind too. The second hand on my watch would twitch once, and a year would pass, and then it would twitch again.
There was nothing I could do about it. As an Earthling I had to believe whatever clocks said -and calendars.”
― Kurt Vonnegut, Slaughterhouse-Five

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johnny
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Re: blows my mind how many people do not care!

Post by johnny » Fri Aug 03, 2012 5:10 pm

Annapurna wrote:
johnny wrote:i understand when someone has another faith or whatever so they don't care about buddhism. but i don't get people who just go through life not practicing anything! they suffer, they cause themselves problems, and it doesn't matter at all too them! you can tell them how great jhana feels or what ultimate reality is supposed too be and how amazing it is when you realize not self and so on, and they just shrug.

i'm not trying too convert people or anything like that, just talking about how people usually respond when i talk about the dhamma. just "blah. whatever, sounds cool. i'd rather watch a reality tv show and get drunk."

i say "once i felt my ego lift for about an hour and it was literally the greatest feeling i've ever had in my life!" :shrug:

i say "once i entered jhana and it was like another world! i didn't see, hear, taste, smell, or feel anything around me, yet i was completely awake, and in total bliss!" :shrug:

and before you think it, it's not me! i can get people interested in physical determinism, or space exploration, or solipsism, or any random thing. but for some reason, epic and truly amazing as it is, the dhamma just doesn't impress most people that i know.

especially strange when the modern medical community generally recommends meditation and mindfulness as things that are good for you! so it's not like trying too get someone interested in something that has no grounding in scientific reality. there are direct, quantifiable, positive results from practicing the dhamma (mostly meditation has been studied for this but nonetheless). but still :shrug:

i guess i was one of these people long ago in my life? not sure though, no one ever told me about any of this, so i don't know how i would have responded.
Hi there, remember how the Buddha got enlightenened under the Bodhi-Tree and upon realizing that he would not be able to reach a lot of people he became hopeless and didn't want to teach the Dhamma?

It took a lot of encouragement from a Deva to make him change his mind....

So, he knew how humans are...

Don't let it upset you.

He knew that most people are run-of-the-mill wordlings and can't see the "truth".

In one suttha (can't remember which) he asked someone who was disppointed:

"What did you expext....?"

So....do not expect too much of them...but I am sure you can imagine now how then Buddha felt...and he was a Supreme Buddha, seeing a lot more than we....

Annapurna
good point! good advice, thanks.
The time would not pass. Somebody was playing with the clocks, and not only the electronic clocks but the wind-up kind too. The second hand on my watch would twitch once, and a year would pass, and then it would twitch again.
There was nothing I could do about it. As an Earthling I had to believe whatever clocks said -and calendars.”
― Kurt Vonnegut, Slaughterhouse-Five

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johnny
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Re: blows my mind how many people do not care!

Post by johnny » Fri Aug 03, 2012 5:14 pm

Ben wrote:Not everyone is interested in the Dhamma. Its just a fact of life.
Perhaps they don't have the paramitas to encounter the Buddha Sasana in this life.
The important thing is to live a Dhammic life as much as possible each and every day.
That in itself will generate far more interest than any attempt to get others interested by talking to them about the Dhamma.
kind regards,

Ben

you are absolutely right. oddly, more than a decade ago, when i was just starting off and knew nothing about it, just basic meditation and i bought a book or two, it seemed many people were interested! i had five different people get so interested they went too a temple with me, and all on different occasions.

then i practice for years and years and have some minor accomplishments and can really speak about the benefits of the dhamma from first hand experience, and no one cares lol!

a lot is probably just chance, talking too the right people on the right day!

oh well.
The time would not pass. Somebody was playing with the clocks, and not only the electronic clocks but the wind-up kind too. The second hand on my watch would twitch once, and a year would pass, and then it would twitch again.
There was nothing I could do about it. As an Earthling I had to believe whatever clocks said -and calendars.”
― Kurt Vonnegut, Slaughterhouse-Five

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johnny
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Re: blows my mind how many people do not care!

Post by johnny » Fri Aug 03, 2012 5:16 pm

befriend wrote:i also find it very creepy that people can go there whole lives without wondering "why am i alive". its beyond eery. but its weird because it makes sense to wonder about life. i mind my own business and i never talk about buddhism in front of my friends unless they ask.
yeah me too! "what is reality? why am i conscious? what is the universe?" these questions have been with me for as long as i can remember!
The time would not pass. Somebody was playing with the clocks, and not only the electronic clocks but the wind-up kind too. The second hand on my watch would twitch once, and a year would pass, and then it would twitch again.
There was nothing I could do about it. As an Earthling I had to believe whatever clocks said -and calendars.”
― Kurt Vonnegut, Slaughterhouse-Five

David2
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Re: blows my mind how many people do not care!

Post by David2 » Fri Aug 03, 2012 5:23 pm

To make a little comment on the title of the thread:

It is the aversion or the craving that blows the mind, not the circumstances.

So there is nothing really wrong with circumstances at any time - there can only be something wrong with how we relate to them.

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Re: blows my mind how many people do not care!

Post by manas » Fri Aug 03, 2012 6:38 pm

johnny wrote:i understand when someone has another faith or whatever so they don't care about buddhism. but i don't get people who just go through life not practicing anything! they suffer, they cause themselves problems, and it doesn't matter at all too them! you can tell them how great jhana feels or what ultimate reality is supposed too be and how amazing it is when you realize not self and so on, and they just shrug.

i'm not trying too convert people or anything like that, just talking about how people usually respond when i talk about the dhamma. just "blah. whatever, sounds cool. i'd rather watch a reality tv show and get drunk."

i say "once i felt my ego lift for about an hour and it was literally the greatest feeling i've ever had in my life!" :shrug:

i say "once i entered jhana and it was like another world! i didn't see, hear, taste, smell, or feel anything around me, yet i was completely awake, and in total bliss!" :shrug:

and before you think it, it's not me! i can get people interested in physical determinism, or space exploration, or solipsism, or any random thing. but for some reason, epic and truly amazing as it is, the dhamma just doesn't impress most people that i know.

especially strange when the modern medical community generally recommends meditation and mindfulness as things that are good for you! so it's not like trying too get someone interested in something that has no grounding in scientific reality. there are direct, quantifiable, positive results from practicing the dhamma (mostly meditation has been studied for this but nonetheless). but still :shrug:

i guess i was one of these people long ago in my life? not sure though, no one ever told me about any of this, so i don't know how i would have responded.
Hi Johnny

not everyone who expresses disinterest in the Dhamma will be doing so due to lacking any spiritual aspiration at all. For example, most Christians are pretty much closed to giving any other Path even a decent hearing, because they are taught that it is from 'the devil'. lol. People won't always reveal the real reason why they don't wish to hear about Buddhism!

As for those who are just trying to live happily in the here-and-now, and who don't appear to you to be interested in anything higher or spiritual - well that is the impression they give, but if we could see into their hearts, which we currently can not, we might see deep inside a dread and fear of what is to come, in the sense of how our bodies are prone to accidents, being broken, and eventually growing old and dying - a dread that they don't seem to have the strength to face right now. I feel compassion for such people.

As for those who really are heedless, intoxicated and offensive etc - even in the Buddha's day there were people like that around! Why does it surprise you? feel sorry for them too, because you know what kind of future they are preparing for themselves, if they don't mend their ways!

One more thing - we need to know how to tell people about the Dhamma. The Buddha actually gave some guidelines about it, we are not supposed to talk about things people are totally not ready for.
"It's not easy to teach the Dhamma to others, Ananda. The Dhamma should be taught to others only when five qualities are established within the person teaching. Which five?

"[1] The Dhamma should be taught with the thought, 'I will speak step-by-step.'

"[2] The Dhamma should be taught with the thought, 'I will speak explaining the sequence [of cause & effect].'

"[3] The Dhamma should be taught with the thought, 'I will speak out of compassion.'

"[4] The Dhamma should be taught with the thought, 'I will speak not for the purpose of material reward.'

"[5] The Dhamma should be taught with the thought, 'I will speak without hurting myself or others.'[1]

"It's not easy to teach the Dhamma to others, Ananda. The Dhamma should be taught to others only when these five qualities are established within the person teaching."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Surely' step by step' means we don't jump directly to jhana experiences when relating the Dhamma to uninstructed people, unless they have asked you about it. Otherwise, you might just confuse them. Even more so I would not tell someone right off the bat that 'the body is not self...feelings are not self...'(etc) because that information should come later, when they have comprehended a few other issues first. If I talk about the merits of meditation, I just tell people that it relaxes me, gives my mind more clarity, and helps me get through the rest of the day - which is all true in any case, but is also simple enough to not confuse them!

Above all - don't stress... People believe different things - that's how the world is :anjali:

metta
Knowing this body is like a clay jar,
securing this mind like a fort,
attack Mara with the spear of discernment,
then guard what's won without settling there,
without laying claim.

- Dhp 40

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mikenz66
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Re: blows my mind how many people do not care!

Post by mikenz66 » Fri Aug 03, 2012 9:06 pm

:goodpost:

I think it's important to approach conversations with others carefully, so as not to come across as some sort of Budhist-evangelist, rejecting the significant good points that exist in almost all religious paths.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... ay_24.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

A "quote" that is sometimes useful to keep in mind is:
Not everyone likes a Buddhist, everyone likes a Buddha.


:anjali:
Mike

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johnny
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Re: blows my mind how many people do not care!

Post by johnny » Sat Aug 04, 2012 5:03 am

David2 wrote:To make a little comment on the title of the thread:

It is the aversion or the craving that blows the mind, not the circumstances.

So there is nothing really wrong with circumstances at any time - there can only be something wrong with how we relate to them.
your wise words are true, but extremely broad and apply just as much too every action and thought of every person (other than arahants and perhaps a few exceptions or neutral events) as they do too my thread title.

there is never anything wrong with the circumstances of anything at any time, any where in ultimate reality. the whole problem is how we relate too things. so you could go around too every thread on this forum and post this (reworded too fit their posts), then go too every one you see and say this, then write it in history books about the actions of almost every person who ever lived, and so on, and so on.
The time would not pass. Somebody was playing with the clocks, and not only the electronic clocks but the wind-up kind too. The second hand on my watch would twitch once, and a year would pass, and then it would twitch again.
There was nothing I could do about it. As an Earthling I had to believe whatever clocks said -and calendars.”
― Kurt Vonnegut, Slaughterhouse-Five

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johnny
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Re: blows my mind how many people do not care!

Post by johnny » Sat Aug 04, 2012 5:07 am

mikenz66 wrote::goodpost:

I think it's important to approach conversations with others carefully, so as not to come across as some sort of Budhist-evangelist, rejecting the significant good points that exist in almost all religious paths.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... ay_24.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

A "quote" that is sometimes useful to keep in mind is:
Not everyone likes a Buddhist, everyone likes a Buddha.


:anjali:
Mike

i'm talking about speaking too close friends whom i know their spiritual views already, and as i said in the op: i'm not trying too convert people. i'm just making conversation. i am extremely careful not too come off like that. no one likes a salesman trying too push something on them.

oh and, everyone likes a buddha EXCEPT devadatta :tongue:
The time would not pass. Somebody was playing with the clocks, and not only the electronic clocks but the wind-up kind too. The second hand on my watch would twitch once, and a year would pass, and then it would twitch again.
There was nothing I could do about it. As an Earthling I had to believe whatever clocks said -and calendars.”
― Kurt Vonnegut, Slaughterhouse-Five

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mikenz66
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Re: blows my mind how many people do not care!

Post by mikenz66 » Sat Aug 04, 2012 5:28 am

Hi johnny,
johnny wrote: i'm talking about speaking too close friends whom i know their spiritual views already, and as i said in the op: i'm not trying too convert people. i'm just making conversation. i am extremely careful not too come off like that. no one likes a salesman trying too push something on them.
Your enthusiasm is admirable, but, if you don't mind some frank observation, from reading your posts, I could imagine how your friends might interpret your conversation as a little overenthusiastic, and just turn off. I think most people here would have friends for whom trying to discuss Dhamma too directly would be counter-productive. I think it's better to just use a Dhamma approach with people ("be a Buddha").

:anjali:
Mike

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johnny
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Re: blows my mind how many people do not care!

Post by johnny » Sat Aug 04, 2012 6:16 am

mikenz66 wrote:Hi johnny,
johnny wrote: i'm talking about speaking too close friends whom i know their spiritual views already, and as i said in the op: i'm not trying too convert people. i'm just making conversation. i am extremely careful not too come off like that. no one likes a salesman trying too push something on them.
Your enthusiasm is admirable, but, if you don't mind some frank observation, from reading your posts, I could imagine how your friends might interpret your conversation as a little overenthusiastic, and just turn off. I think most people here would have friends for whom trying to discuss Dhamma too directly would be counter-productive. I think it's better to just use a Dhamma approach with people ("be a Buddha").

:anjali:
Mike
interesting that you would come too such a conclusion. i am on a dhamma site posting these things. concluding that my posts on here match what i say too non-buddhists is border line absurd, if you don't mind some frank feed back. why would i blather on about things that are in depth dhamma ideas that a non-buddhist would find not only boring but utterly incomprehensible? i have randomly broached the topic with all of my close friends. as i said, talk about jhana here and there, consciousness a couple of times, nothing too deep or pushy, just some of the more exciting things that they may relate to (and out of ten or so, three do relate) these conversations lasted all of sixty seconds to two minutes at the most, i see they're not interested and i change the subject. with the people who do not seem interested, i don't bring it up again unless it's directly relevant. friend: "my doctor said my blood pressure is high." me: "i think meditation can lower it according too some studies.". other than situations like that (which are rare), i do not speak about the dhamma at all with these people as they clearly are not interested. i have a little more insight into how not too annoy my friends than you give me credit for.

i told you clearly that i am not trying too convert people and that i am very careful about what i say. i don't know why that would make you decide "hey, i'm going too try too tell this guy his friends think he's overenthusiastic!" which is just rephrasing your earlier comment that i shouldn't sound like an evangelist, which i already replied too and made it clear this is not what i do, and it's in the op. so... yeah... not sure where you were going with this. ignoring everything i said though, i won't be surprised if your next post is something like: "maybe you should try not talking about the dhamma with people who don't care? they may like you more and you will have more friends that way. based on your posts here, i imagine you probably don't understand how too talk too people without pushing them away." etc.

you not only said that i am overenthusiastic with people that i know in real life, but also in doing so implied that my posts on this site are overenthusiastic. double insult. "overenthusiastic" implies that i am over some kind of socially acceptable limit, very negative thing too say too someone you do not know in a public setting. what would you have me change about my posts on this forum?

EDIT: i just looked over all my posts, almost all are me asking questions by starting threads! this is a passive process and if you are drawing conclusions between this and real life for some reason, it would imply that i rarely talk too people about the dhamma unless they are coming to me too answer a question i have asked by posting it on a bulletin board about something too do with the dhamma or in some other way posed a question in a passive manner that would allow me too wait for someone too see it, find it interesting, and only then approach me too speak about it. i don't even go too other people's threads and ask questions, i almost exclusively have posted questions and waited for replies and only then do i discuss anything with anyone.
Last edited by johnny on Sat Aug 04, 2012 7:19 am, edited 5 times in total.
The time would not pass. Somebody was playing with the clocks, and not only the electronic clocks but the wind-up kind too. The second hand on my watch would twitch once, and a year would pass, and then it would twitch again.
There was nothing I could do about it. As an Earthling I had to believe whatever clocks said -and calendars.”
― Kurt Vonnegut, Slaughterhouse-Five

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