seriously, no one else has any ideas? dealing with emotion?

[kirk5a]

Emotions should be understood. For example - what is anger, really? What is actually going on, in detail, in the body/mind, that unfolds into what we call "angry" ? What's going on with sensations, what's going on with mental objects? That's what I look at. I think the causes of the unfolding have to be understood with wisdom. There's usually "me" or "my" in there somewhere...

[reflection]

To find out where anger comes from is useful in a way, but kindness is the best counter to anger. To apply this as soon as anger arises, is the most skillful approach because it needs no investigation and thus becomes a more automatic response. And it is a very strong counter.

If that doesn't work, because 'the anger is too strong already for example, you can always still find out where it comes from.

Same with other thoughts really. Best to catch them as soon as they arise and give them their natural antidote. Sadness with joy, greed with renunciation/letting go. With states of confusion it's a bit harder, but it is possible to replace them immediately with wisdom.

You can also find this in the sutta on the Removal of Distracting Thoughts, which actually is a great sutta to answer the question. But it is not very useful if anger/stress etc. have already taken hold of you. So you need to keep mindful all day, as I said in a previous post. Then you can apply the techniques you can find in the sutta, which is here;
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... el021.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

As you can see the sitting it out, which I mentioned before, is also in there. That's basically to not give attention to those thoughts.

But be a bit creative also. The mind can often find it's own way to handle the thoughts. Basically it knows what to do. It'll be one of the techniques above, but it'll be natural. So don't become a machine. At least, that's my personal advice, it's not in that sutta I have to add, as a disclaimer.

[johnny]

To find out where anger comes from is useful in a way, but kindness is the best counter to anger. To apply this as soon as anger arises, is the most skillful approach because it needs no investigation and thus becomes a more automatic response. And it is a very strong counter.

If that doesn't work, because 'the anger is too strong already for example, you can always still find out where it comes from.

Same with other thoughts really. Best to catch them as soon as they arise and give them their natural antidote. Sadness with joy, greed with renunciation/letting go. With states of confusion it's a bit harder, but it is possible to replace them immediately with wisdom.

You can also find this in the sutta on the Removal of Distracting Thoughts, which actually is a great sutta to answer the question. But it is not very useful if anger/stress etc. have already taken hold of you. So you need to keep mindful all day, as I said in a previous post. Then you can apply the techniques you can find in the sutta, which is here;
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... el021.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

As you can see the sitting it out, which I mentioned before, is also in there. That's basically to not give attention to those thoughts.

But be a bit creative also. The mind can often find it's own way to handle the thoughts. Basically it knows what to do. It'll be one of the techniques above, but it'll be natural. So don't become a machine. At least, that's my personal advice, it's not in that sutta I have to add, as a disclaimer.

how does one use wisdom to counter confusion?

[reflection]

To find out where anger comes from is useful in a way, but kindness is the best counter to anger. To apply this as soon as anger arises, is the most skillful approach because it needs no investigation and thus becomes a more automatic response. And it is a very strong counter.

If that doesn't work, because 'the anger is too strong already for example, you can always still find out where it comes from.

Same with other thoughts really. Best to catch them as soon as they arise and give them their natural antidote. Sadness with joy, greed with renunciation/letting go. With states of confusion it's a bit harder, but it is possible to replace them immediately with wisdom.

You can also find this in the sutta on the Removal of Distracting Thoughts, which actually is a great sutta to answer the question. But it is not very useful if anger/stress etc. have already taken hold of you. So you need to keep mindful all day, as I said in a previous post. Then you can apply the techniques you can find in the sutta, which is here;
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... el021.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

As you can see the sitting it out, which I mentioned before, is also in there. That's basically to not give attention to those thoughts.

But be a bit creative also. The mind can often find it's own way to handle the thoughts. Basically it knows what to do. It'll be one of the techniques above, but it'll be natural. So don't become a machine. At least, that's my personal advice, it's not in that sutta I have to add, as a disclaimer.

how does one use wisdom to counter confusion?

Good one.

To recapitulate: There are the poisons of greed, hatred and delusion.

To remove delusion, first of all, you need to have the wisdom. But this wisdom is what we are training, so if it's not really there yet, that makes countering delusion hard, if not impossible. It's like you can't really instantly counter anger when it arises, if you are not proficient in loving kindness meditation to some degree.

An example may be how you can be obsessed with a pain in the body. But than you realize, "wait a minute, I'm not my body, I don't need to obsess over this pain." Of course, first you need to know that you are not your body. Not just intellectually, but by some genuine insight. And wanting to get rid of pain is also a desire of course.

But delusion encompasses that also. Anger and desire are also forms of delusion. So if you can get at that level of really understanding, you can use wisdom to get rid off unwholesome thoughts. But you can't force this. Delusion is really the hardest of them all, because it's very hidden, you can't often see it.

So I'd say the other two are probably more important to focus on right now. If you have some real genuine wisdom, it'll come automatically, not really needing to force it. And that's because you'll have the wisdom If you try to force it, it'll be like trying to beat a nail into wood with your bare hand, because you don't have a hammer; more chance you'll hurt yourself than actually succeeding in what you want to do.

With metta,
Reflection

[johnny]

To find out where anger comes from is useful in a way, but kindness is the best counter to anger. To apply this as soon as anger arises, is the most skillful approach because it needs no investigation and thus becomes a more automatic response. And it is a very strong counter.

If that doesn't work, because 'the anger is too strong already for example, you can always still find out where it comes from.

Same with other thoughts really. Best to catch them as soon as they arise and give them their natural antidote. Sadness with joy, greed with renunciation/letting go. With states of confusion it's a bit harder, but it is possible to replace them immediately with wisdom.

You can also find this in the sutta on the Removal of Distracting Thoughts, which actually is a great sutta to answer the question. But it is not very useful if anger/stress etc. have already taken hold of you. So you need to keep mindful all day, as I said in a previous post. Then you can apply the techniques you can find in the sutta, which is here;
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... el021.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

As you can see the sitting it out, which I mentioned before, is also in there. That's basically to not give attention to those thoughts.

But be a bit creative also. The mind can often find it's own way to handle the thoughts. Basically it knows what to do. It'll be one of the techniques above, but it'll be natural. So don't become a machine. At least, that's my personal advice, it's not in that sutta I have to add, as a disclaimer.

how does one use wisdom to counter confusion?

Good one.

To recapitulate: There are the poisons of greed, hatred and delusion.

To remove delusion, first of all, you need to have the wisdom. But this wisdom is what we are training, so if it's not really there yet, that makes countering delusion hard, if not impossible. It's like you can't really instantly counter anger when it arises, if you are not proficient in loving kindness meditation to some degree.

An example may be how you can be obsessed with a pain in the body. But than you realize, "wait a minute, I'm not my body, I don't need to obsess over this pain." Of course, first you need to know that you are not your body. Not just intellectually, but by some genuine insight. And wanting to get rid of pain is also a desire of course.

But delusion encompasses that also. Anger and desire are also forms of delusion. So if you can get at that level of really understanding, you can use wisdom to get rid off unwholesome thoughts. But you can't force this. Delusion is really the hardest of them all, because it's very hidden, you can't often see it.

So I'd say the other two are probably more important to focus on right now. If you have some real genuine wisdom, it'll come automatically, not really needing to force it. And that's because you'll have the wisdom If you try to force it, it'll be like trying to beat a nail into wood with your bare hand, because you don't have a hammer; more chance you'll hurt yourself than actually succeeding in what you want to do.

With metta,
Reflection

interesting. thank you. not self is such a key!

[sattva]

Hi Johnny!
Interesting syncronicity, I just bought 2 books from a Tibetan Buddhist perspective. One is by the Dalai Lama and Parl Ekman called Emotional Awareness and the other by Pema Chodron is Taking the Leap: Freeing Ourselves from Old Habits and Fears. I consider myself an all around Buddhist, but Zen is my main focus. So, you might want to think on it before you follow anything I say. It was mentioned to be with the emotion. What this means from a Zen and I think Tibetan and possible even a Theravadan perspective is that you don't try to change what you are feeling. So, if you are anxious, just be anxious. Put all your awareness into that emotion. Recently, I received some hard news and i "needed" to cry. So, I did, but it didn't last long. If i had tried to suppress it, it might have lasted longer. Pema Chodron has talked in several of her books about how the usual thing is to try to escape whatever difficult emotional state we are feeling. So even meditation can be used as a means of escape. Fortunately though, it has been my experience that practice brings up painful memories and mindstates at times. If you only want the good states, you will try like crazy to recreate them and that can stifle real progress on the path.

Well there is my 2 cents. Whatever happens, I wish you well and much happiness and many years to practice this wonderful path.

[johnny]

Hi Johnny!
Interesting syncronicity, I just bought 2 books from a Tibetan Buddhist perspective. One is by the Dalai Lama and Parl Ekman called Emotional Awareness and the other by Pema Chodron is Taking the Leap: Freeing Ourselves from Old Habits and Fears. I consider myself an all around Buddhist, but Zen is my main focus. So, you might want to think on it before you follow anything I say. It was mentioned to be with the emotion. What this means from a Zen and I think Tibetan and possible even a Theravadan perspective is that you don't try to change what you are feeling. So, if you are anxious, just be anxious. Put all your awareness into that emotion. Recently, I received some hard news and i "needed" to cry. So, I did, but it didn't last long. If i had tried to suppress it, it might have lasted longer. Pema Chodron has talked in several of her books about how the usual thing is to try to escape whatever difficult emotional state we are feeling. So even meditation can be used as a means of escape. Fortunately though, it has been my experience that practice brings up painful memories and mindstates at times. If you only want the good states, you will try like crazy to recreate them and that can stifle real progress on the path.

Well there is my 2 cents. Whatever happens, I wish you well and much happiness and many years to practice this wonderful path.

i've contemplated this many times and it certainly is true. i feel like there must be some kind of balance. i had a zen teacher once tell me too stay away from good emotions and not let them get me into a happy mode because that always ends and then you feel bad by comparison. but i wonder if that's really healthy? then you are just numb all the time. i really don't know the answers, i'm just musing. thanks for the excellent post!