The Eye is Impermanent.

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Nyana
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Re: The Eye is Impermanent.

Post by Nyana »

vinasp wrote: Your explanation makes no sense to me. Does what you call "the full development
of the noble eightfold path", result in the cessation of ignorance - or not?
Yes it does. Nevertheless a living arahant still has eyes and sees forms, and so on. SN 35.232:
  • There exists in the Blessed One the eye, the Blessed One sees a form with the eye, yet there is no desire and lust in the Blessed One; the Blessed One is well liberated in mind. There exists in the Blessed One the ear, the Blessed One hears a sound with the ear ... There exists in the Blessed One the nose, the Blessed One smells an odour with the nose ... There exists in the Blessed One the tongue, the Blessed One savours a taste with the tongue ... There exists in the Blessed One the body, the Blessed One feels a tactile object with the body ... There exists in the Blessed One the mind, the Blessed One cognizes a mental phenomenon with the mind, yet there is no desire and lust in the Blessed One; the Blessed One is well liberated in mind.
vinasp
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Re: The Eye is Impermanent.

Post by vinasp »

Hi Nana,

If ignorance has ceased for this arahant, then according to the DO formula
the six-spheres have also ceased.

I agree that the arahant still has the five actual senses and a mind.

Which is correct, the DO formula, which says that the six-spheres cease, or
MN 121 which says that they are still present?

Kind regards, Vincent.
vinasp
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Re: The Eye is Impermanent.

Post by vinasp »

Hi everyone,

"Bhikkhus, there are these four noble truths. Which four? The noble truth of
suffering, the noble truth of the origin of suffering, the noble truth of the
cessation of suffering, the noble truth of the way leading to the cessation
of suffering.
"And what, bhikkhus, is the noble truth of suffering? It should be said:
the six internal sense bases. What six? The eye base ... the mind base.
This is called the noble truth of suffering. ...

[ The rest is the same as in the "standard" version. BB, CD, SN 56.14]

So, the noble eightfold path leads to the cessation of ... the six internal
sense bases.

Regards, Vincent.
Nyana
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Re: The Eye is Impermanent.

Post by Nyana »

vinasp wrote: Which is correct, the DO formula, which says that the six-spheres cease, or
MN 121 which says that they are still present?
There's no contradiction. Both are correct.
vinasp wrote: So, the noble eightfold path leads to the cessation of ... the six internal
sense bases.
Again, there's no point in conflating the nibbānadhātu with fuel remaining and the nibbānadhātu with no more fuel remaining. The Nettippakaraṇa:
  • [O]nly the nibbānadhātu with no fuel remaining (anupādisesa nibbānadhātu) liberates from the unsatisfactoriness of fabrications (saṅkhāradukkhatā).
And the Paṭisambhidāmagga Suññatākathā:
  • [T]hrough the nibbānadhātu without any fuel remaining for one who is fully aware this occurrence of eye ends and no further occurrence of eye arises; this occurrence of ear ends and no further occurrence of ear arises; this occurrence of nose ends and no further occurrence of nose arises; this occurrence of tongue ends and no further occurrence of tongue arises; this occurrence of body ends and no further occurrence of body arises; this occurrence of mind ends and no further occurrence of mind arises.
Also, Visuddhimagga, Chapter 16:
  • [Q] Is the absence of present [aggregates] as well nibbāna?

    [A] That is not so. Because their absence is an impossibility, since if they are absent their non-presence follows. [Besides, if nibbāna were absence of present aggregates too,] that would entail the fault of excluding the arising of the nibbāna element with result of past clinging left, at the path moment, which has present aggregates as its support.
Sylvester
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Re: The Eye is Impermanent.

Post by Sylvester »

vinasp wrote:Hi Nana,

If ignorance has ceased for this arahant, then according to the DO formula
the six-spheres have also ceased.


I agree that the arahant still has the five actual senses and a mind.

Which is correct, the DO formula, which says that the six-spheres cease, or
MN 121 which says that they are still present?

Kind regards, Vincent.
Hi vinasp

You may wish to reconsider your statement above in light of how Dependant Cessation is crafted in the Pali. The Pali grammatical structure of the Dependant Cessation schema allows a downstream cessation effect to be either concurrent with the cessation of avijja or far, far in the future (see idappaccayata and SN 12.49 - 50 on idappacayata, but the possibility of temporal disjunction only shows in the Pali, not in the English translations).

Those states that cease concurrently with the cessation of avijja are (i) the sankharas (SN 12.51, but see SN 12.38 on what sankharas mean in DO and DC) and (ii) the establishment of consciousness (SN 12.38 - 40). SN 12.51 makes clear that an Arahant continues to feel, which is only possible if the 6 indriyas/faculties continue after awakening.
vinasp
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Re: The Eye is Impermanent.

Post by vinasp »

Hi Nana,

vinasp wrote:"Which is correct, the DO formula, which says that the six-spheres cease, or MN 121 which says that they are still present?"

Nana replied: "There's no contradiction. Both are correct."

It is no good just making assertions. Where are your arguments?

There clearly is an apparent contradiction.

vinasp wrote: "So, the noble eightfold path leads to the cessation of ... the six internal sense bases."

Nana replied:"Again, there's no point in conflating the nibbānadhātu with fuel ..."

I am not "conflating" anything, that statement follows logically and directly
from the sutta which I cited [SN 56.14].

Here is another passage which says the same thing:

"If, through revulsion towards the eye, through its fading away and cessation,
one is liberated by nonclinging, one can be called a bhikkhu who has attained
Nibbana in this very life." [Part of SN 35.155]

Kind regards, Vincent.
vinasp
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Re: The Eye is Impermanent.

Post by vinasp »

Hi Sylvester,

Sylvester said: "SN 12.51 makes clear that an Arahant continues to feel, which is only possible if the 6 indriyas/faculties continue after awakening."

Then how do you interpret this passage:

"If, through revulsion towards the eye, through its fading away and cessation,
one is liberated by nonclinging, one can be called a bhikkhu who has attained
Nibbana in this very life." [Part of SN 35.155]

Kind regards, Vincent.
Nyana
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Re: The Eye is Impermanent.

Post by Nyana »

vinasp wrote: There clearly is an apparent contradiction.
I already replied to this concern of yours a few months ago here.

Also, please consider Nettippakaraṇa 4.42:
  • Above, below, everywhere released,
    He does not see that “I am this.”
    Thus liberated, he crosses the flood
    Not crossed before, for no further renewal of existence.



    [Non-learner’s liberation: Asekhāvimutti]

    Above is the form element and the formless element. Below is the sensual desire element. Everywhere released is the non-learner’s liberation (asekhāvimutti) from the triple element [of existence]. That itself is the non-learner’s five faculties (pañcindriyāni: i.e. faith, energy, mindfulness, concentration, and discernment). This is the way of entry by faculties.

    These same non-learner’s five faculties are knowledge (vijjā). With the arising of knowledge [there is] the cessation of ignorance; with the cessation of ignorance, the cessation of volitional fabrications; with the cessation of volitional fabrications, the cessation of consciousness; with the cessation of consciousness, the cessation of name-and-form; with the cessation of name-and-form; the cessation of the six sense spheres; with cessation of the six sense spheres, the cessation of contact; with the cessation of contact, the cessation of feeling; with the cessation of feeling, the cessation of craving; with the cessation of craving, the cessation of grasping; with the cessation of grasping, the cessation of becoming; with the cessation of becoming, the cessation of birth; with the cessation of birth, aging and death cease, and [also] sorrow, grieving, pain, unhappiness, and despair; that is how there is the cessation to this whole aggregate of unsatisfactoriness. This is the way of entry by the aspects of dependent arising.

    Those same non-learner’s five faculties are comprised within the three aggregates, namely the aggregate of ethical conduct (sīlakkhandha), the aggregate of concentration (samādhikkhandha), and the aggregate of discernment (paññākkhandha). This is the way of entry by aggregates.

    Those same non-learner’s five faculties are included in fabrications. These fabrications, [which in this case are] free from mental outflows (āsavā) and are not factors of existence, are comprised within the dhamma element (dhammadhātu). This is the way of entry by elements.

    That dhamma element is included in the dhamma sphere (dhammāyatana), which [in this case] is free from mental outflows and not a factor of existence. This is the way of entry by spheres.


    [Learner’s liberation: Sekhāvimutti]

    He does not see that “I am this.” This is the eradication of identity-view (sakkāyadiṭṭhi). That is the learner’s liberation (sekhāvimutti). That itself is the learner's five faculties. This is the way of entry by faculties.

    Those same learner's five faculties are knowledge (vijjā). With the arising of knowledge [there is] the cessation of ignorance; with the cessation of ignorance, the cessation of volitional fabrications; thus the whole of dependent arising. This is the way of entry by the aspects of dependent arising.

    That same knowledge is the discernment aggregate (paññākkhandha). This is the way of entry by aggregates.

    That same knowledge is included in fabrications. These fabrications, [which in this case are] free from mental outflows and are not factors of existence, are comprised within the dhamma element (dhammadhātu). This is the way of entry by elements.

    That dhamma element is included in the dhamma sphere (dhammāyatana), which [in this case] is free from mental outflows and not a factor of existence. This is the way of entry by spheres.

    It is one liberated by means of the learner’s liberation and the non-learner’s liberation (sekkhāya ca vimuttiyā asekkhāya ca vimuttiyā) who crosses the flood not crossed before, for no further renewal of existence.
vinasp
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Re: The Eye is Impermanent.

Post by vinasp »

Hi Nana,

The contradiction is not just between DO and MN 121.

Let us not argue over different interpretations of DO.

This passage is also in apparent contradiction with MN 121:

"If, through revulsion towards the eye, through its fading away and cessation,
one is liberated by nonclinging, one can be called a bhikkhu who has attained
Nibbana in this very life." [Part of SN 35.155]

How do you explain this apparent contradiction?

Kind regards, Vincent.
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mikenz66
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Re: The Eye is Impermanent.

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi Vincent,

It seems to me you're not paying enough attention to the detailed explanations that Nana and Sylvester have given. In particular Sylvester's note here:
http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... 80#p196994" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
You may wish to reconsider your statement above in light of how Dependant Cessation is crafted in the Pali. The Pali grammatical structure of the Dependant Cessation schema allows a downstream cessation effect to be either concurrent with the cessation of avijja or far, far in the future (see idappaccayata and SN 12.49 - 50 on idappacayata, but the possibility of temporal disjunction only shows in the Pali, not in the English translations).
And it seems to be a common misunderstanding that "in this very life" does not necessarily mean "at this instant". Knowing that one is liberated doesn't mean that everything has ceased at this point.

See the quote from Ven Nananada here http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 60#p101215" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; which I referred to a few posts ago:
  • "As a huge blazing fire, with no more fire wood added,
    Goes down to reach a state of calm,
    When saïkhàras calm down,
    One is called `extinguished'."
...
From the particular context in which the verse occurs, it seems that this imagery of the fire is a restatement of the image of the lotus unsmeared by water. Though the embers are still smouldering, to the extent that they are no longer hungering for more fuel and are not emitting flames, they may as well be reckoned as `extinguished'.
...
This cooling off happens just before death, without igniting an­other spark of life. When Màra comes to grab and seize, the ara­hant lets go. The pain of death with which Màra teases his hapless victim and lures him into another existence, becomes ineffective in the case of the arahant. As he has already gone through the supra­mundane experience of deathlessness, in the arahat­taphala­samà­dhi, death loses its sting when at last it comes. The influx-free deliver­ance of the mind and the influx-free deliverance through wisdom en­able him to cool down all feelings in a way that baffles Màra.

So the arahant lets go of his body, experiencing ambrosial death­lessness. As in the case of Venerable Dabba Mallaputta, he would sometimes cremate his own body without leaving any ashes.[37] Out­wardly it might appear as an act of self-immolation, which in­deed is painful. But this is not so. Using his jhànic powers, he simply em­ploys the internal fire element to cremate the body he has already discarded.

This, then, is the Buddha's extraordinary solution to the problem of overcoming death, a solution that completely outwits Màra.

[37] Ud 92, Pañhamadabbasutta.
:anjali:
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santa100
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Re: The Eye is Impermanent.

Post by santa100 »

Vinasp wrote:
"This passage is also in apparent contradiction with MN 121:

"If, through revulsion towards the eye, through its fading away and cessation,
one is liberated by nonclinging, one can be called a bhikkhu who has attained
Nibbana in this very life." [Part of SN 35.155]

How do you explain this apparent contradiction?"
SN 35.155 belongs to Salayatana-Samyutta(the Six Sense Bases), Division IV-The Fourth Fifty, I. The Destruction of Delight. As the sutta's name indicated, it's about the destruction of Delight that results in liberation, not the destruction of the sense faculties. Ven. Bodhi rendered it as follow:
"Bhikkhus, a bhikkhu sees as impermanent the eye which is actually impermanent: that is his right view. Seeing rightly, he experiences revulsion. With the destruction of delight comes destruction of lust; with the destruction of lust comes destruction of delight. With the destruction of delight and lust the mind is said to be well liberated"
Hope this helps..
Nyana
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Re: The Eye is Impermanent.

Post by Nyana »

vinasp wrote: This passage is also in apparent contradiction with MN 121:

"If, through revulsion towards the eye, through its fading away and cessation,
one is liberated by nonclinging, one can be called a bhikkhu who has attained
Nibbana in this very life." [Part of SN 35.155]

How do you explain this apparent contradiction?
I don't regard it as a contradiction. The faculties are functional processes, not static, unchanging things. The eye, ear, nose, tongue, body, and mind faculties of a worldling, stream-entrant, once returner, and non-returner have ceased for the arahant, and the arahant has no attachment to any present occurrence of the faculties. Therefore, s/he has attained the nibbānadhātu with fuel remaining. Itivuttaka 44:
  • And what is the Unbinding property with fuel remaining? There is the case where a monk is an arahant whose fermentations have ended, who has reached fulfillment, finished the task, laid down the burden, attained the true goal, ended the fetter of becoming, and is released through right gnosis. His five sense faculties still remain and, owing to their being intact, he is cognizant of the agreeable & the disagreeable, and is sensitive to pleasure & pain. His ending of passion, aversion, & delusion is termed the Unbinding property with fuel remaining.
And when s/he has come to the end of their life, then this is called the nibbānadhātu with no fuel remaining. Itivuttaka 44:
  • And what is the Unbinding property with no fuel remaining? There is the case where a monk is an arahant whose fermentations have ended, who has reached fulfillment, finished the task, laid down the burden, attained the true goal, ended the fetter of becoming, and is released through right gnosis. For him, all that is sensed, being unrelished, will grow cold right here. This is termed the Unbinding property with no fuel remaining.
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Ron-The-Elder
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Re: The Eye is Impermanent.

Post by Ron-The-Elder »

Bottom line: There is no sense routed event which will bring anything other than dukkha if it stimulates desire and clinging. Therefore, revulsion and non-attachment is the appropriate response in all cases, including clinging to views. :anjali:
What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.
vinasp
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Re: The Eye is Impermanent.

Post by vinasp »

Hi Nana,

Nana said:"I don't regard it as a contradiction. The faculties are functional processes, not static, unchanging things. The eye, ear, nose, tongue, body, and mind faculties of a worldling, stream-entrant, once returner, and non-returner have ceased for the arahant, and the arahant has no attachment to any present occurrence of the faculties. Therefore, s/he has attained the nibbānadhātu with fuel remaining. Itivuttaka 44:"

Your interpretation makes no sense to me. You seem to be understanding "eye" in
SN 35.155 as meaning "eye-faculty" and you say some is eliminated, but then you
deny that these faculties cease completely and permanently. But the passage
speaks of "fading away and cessation". I understand cessation here in the light
of other passages, such as this one:

"When there is no eye, no form, and no eye-consciousness, it is impossible to
point out the manifestation of contact. When there is no manifestation of
contact, it is impossible to point out the manifestation of feeling. ..."

[Bhikkhu Bodhi, Middle Length Discourses, page 204 - MN 18.18]

I accept the two kinds of nibbana-element, but for me, these are both attained
while one is still alive.

Kind regards, Vincent.
vinasp
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Re: The Eye is Impermanent.

Post by vinasp »

Hi Nana,

Not knowing much about the "faculties", I looked them up in Nyanatiloka's
Buddhist Dictionary.

He says that the: eye, ear, nose, tongue and body faculties - are physical.

Can you explain in what way the "eye faculty" differs from the actual eye?

Kind regards, Vincent.
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