"The Deathless" (amata)

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tiltbillings
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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Post by tiltbillings » Wed Jul 11, 2012 12:13 am

kirk5a wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:It does it no harm.
So if it does it no harm, then you accept that there is "that dimension" (nibbana) where there is neither earth, nor water, nor fire, nor wind and so on, and that is not entering the domain of Hinduism. Yet you cannot abide that dimension, nibbana, being called, "the deathless."
What text are we talking about here?
The Udana 80 text you quoted? Then please answer my question.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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kirk5a
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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Post by kirk5a » Wed Jul 11, 2012 12:29 am

tiltbillings wrote: The Udana 80 text you quoted? Then please answer my question.
Yes Udana 80.

The first part of your question
"is this [Udana 80] text talking about nibbana as some sort of thing that exist separately from the arahant"
is simply a philosophical abstraction, makes no sense, nibbana is not described in that way, and so it's not worth getting hung up on.

The second part of your question
"is this text talking about a type of meditative experience?"
We already agreed it is talking about nibbana. If you have something you want to say about a type of meditative experience, go ahead.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

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mikenz66
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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Post by mikenz66 » Wed Jul 11, 2012 12:57 am

kirk5a wrote: We already agreed it is talking about nibbana. If you have something you want to say about a type of meditative experience, go ahead.
Some commentators, such as Bhikkhu Nananada, have written many pages arguing that that passage is about a particular meditative experience.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katukurund ... anda_Thera" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.seeingthroughthenet.net/eng/home.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

:anjali:
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tiltbillings
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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Post by tiltbillings » Wed Jul 11, 2012 1:22 am

kirk5a wrote:
tiltbillings wrote: The Udana 80 text you quoted? Then please answer my question.
Yes Udana 80.

The first part of your question
"is this [Udana 80] text talking about nibbana as some sort of thing that exist separately from the arahant"
is simply a philosophical abstraction, makes no sense, nibbana is not described in that way, and so it's not worth getting hung up on.
It is not. It goes directly to your assertion:
the quality within one that isn't subject to arising or passing away.
Let me ask this in a different way: Judging from what you have said, nibbana exists some how as a quality within, but if there are no arahants, is there still nibbana somehow existing in some way?
The second part of your question
"is this text talking about a type of meditative experience?"
We already agreed it is talking about nibbana. If you have something you want to say about a type of meditative experience, go ahead.
I agreed to the ending of dukkha is nibbana. The question is, what is the nature of what is being described in the Udana 80 text in question.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

Nyana
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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Post by Nyana » Wed Jul 11, 2012 2:35 am

kirk5a wrote:"There is that dimension...."
BTW, "dimension" isn't a very good translation of āyatana, especially in this context. The English term "dimension" has spacial connotations which aren't applicable with regard to extinguishment.

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kirk5a
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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Post by kirk5a » Wed Jul 11, 2012 2:40 am

tiltbillings wrote:It is not. It goes directly to your assertion:
the quality within one that isn't subject to arising or passing away.
Let me ask this in a different way: Judging from what you have said, nibbana exists some how as a quality within, but if there are no arahants, is there still nibbana somehow existing in some way?
So you accept the validity of "there is that dimension where there is... neither passing away nor arising" but you can't accept "the quality within that isn't subject to arising and passing away" ?

Furthermore, that was a quotation of Ajaan Lee Dhammadharo, not my assertion.

And finally, the question "if there are no arahants, is there still nibbana somehow existing in some way" is yet another philosophical abstraction. It looks like you think how someone answers this question one way or the other proves something, or that there is a definite answer to this question given by the teachings, and therefore other things follow from that. If you can point to where this question is asked and/or answered in the suttas, then that would be worth knowing.
I agreed to the ending of dukkha is nibbana. The question is, what is the nature of what is being described in the Udana 80 text in question.
So now you don't agree that Udana 80 is talking about nibbana? Even though it says "this, just this, is the end of stress [dukkha]"? And furthermore, in accordance with your own reasoning elsewhere as to the context of the Udana passages, they are talking about nibbana, as they all start with
Now at that time the Blessed One was instructing urging, rousing, and encouraging the monks with Dhamma-talk concerned with Unbinding [nibbana].
Last edited by kirk5a on Wed Jul 11, 2012 3:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

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tiltbillings
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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Post by tiltbillings » Wed Jul 11, 2012 2:43 am

Ñāṇa wrote:
kirk5a wrote:"There is that dimension...."
BTW, "dimension" isn't a very good translation of āyatana, especially in this context. The English term "dimension" has spacial connotations which aren't applicable with regard to extinguishment.
Dhatu, often translated as element, is another significant word that needs to be carefully considered.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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kirk5a
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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Post by kirk5a » Wed Jul 11, 2012 3:05 am

Ñāṇa wrote:
kirk5a wrote:"There is that dimension...."
BTW, "dimension" isn't a very good translation of āyatana, especially in this context. The English term "dimension" has spacial connotations which aren't applicable with regard to extinguishment.
Alternatives?
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

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tiltbillings
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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Post by tiltbillings » Wed Jul 11, 2012 5:26 am

kirk5a wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:It is not. It goes directly to your assertion:
the quality within one that isn't subject to arising or passing away.
Let me ask this in a different way: Judging from what you have said, nibbana exists some how as a quality within, but if there are no arahants, is there still nibbana somehow existing in some way?
So you accept the validity of "there is that dimension where there is... neither passing away nor arising" but you can't accept "the quality within that isn't subject to arising and passing away" ?
I accept the possiblity that the type of meditative experience described in Udana 80 is possible for the arahant, though it is not a necessary experience.
Furthermore, that was a quotation of Ajaan Lee Dhammadharo, not my assertion.
Then you do not think that is how things are?
And finally, the question "if there are no arahants, is there still nibbana somehow existing in some way" is yet another philosophical abstraction. It looks like you think how someone answers this question one way or the other proves something, or that there is a definite answer to this question given by the teachings, and therefore other things follow from that. If you can point to where this question is asked and/or answered in the suttas, then that would be worth knowing.
These are question for exploring what is meant by the idea of nibbana, especially when one uses such terms as "The Deathless," which suggest some thingness is going on.
I agreed to the ending of dukkha is nibbana. The question is, what is the nature of what is being described in the Udana 80 text in question.
So now you don't agree that Udana 80 is talking about nibbana? Even though it says "this, just this, is the end of stress [dukkha]"? And furthermore, in accordance with your own reasoning elsewhere as to the context of the Udana passages, they are talking about nibbana, as they all start with
I agree that the text is talking about an experience that an arahant, particularly a jhana master arahant, can have, as in nirodha-samāpatti.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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kirk5a
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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Post by kirk5a » Wed Jul 11, 2012 10:06 am

tiltbillings wrote:
kirk5a wrote:
Furthermore, that was a quotation of Ajaan Lee Dhammadharo, not my assertion.
Then you do not think that is how things are?
Those words are describing stream entry, I think they are in complete agreement with how stream entry is described in the Visuddhimagga and elsewhere, and I accept those as true and accurate accounts.
the Visuddhimagga wrote: 4. As soon as conformity knowledge has arisen in him in this way, and the
thick murk that hides the truths has been dispelled by the respective force peculiar
to each of the three kinds of conformity (see XXI.129f.), then his consciousness
no longer enters into or settles down on or resolves upon any field of formations
at all, or clings, cleaves or clutches on to it, but retreats, retracts and recoils as
water does from a lotus leaf, and every sign as object, every occurrence as object,
appears as an impediment.
5. Then, while every sign and occurrence appears to him as an impediment,
when conformity knowledge’s repetition has ended, change-of-lineage
knowledge arises in him, which takes as its object the signless, nonoccurrence, non-formation, cessation, Nibbána
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

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tiltbillings
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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Post by tiltbillings » Wed Jul 11, 2012 10:22 am

kirk5a wrote:Those words are describing stream entry, I think they are in complete agreement with how stream entry is described in the Visuddhimagga and elsewhere, and I accept those as true and accurate accounts.
the Visuddhimagga wrote: 4. As soon as conformity knowledge has arisen in him in this way, and the
thick murk that hides the truths has been dispelled by the respective force peculiar
to each of the three kinds of conformity (see XXI.129f.), then his consciousness
no longer enters into or settles down on or resolves upon any field of formations
at all, or clings, cleaves or clutches on to it, but retreats, retracts and recoils as
water does from a lotus leaf, and every sign as object, every occurrence as object,
appears as an impediment.
5. Then, while every sign and occurrence appears to him as an impediment,
when conformity knowledge’s repetition has ended, change-of-lineage
knowledge arises in him, which takes as its object the signless, nonoccurrence, non-formation, cessation, Nibbána
Okay. Now where in this is "the quality within one that isn't subject to arising or passing away"?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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kirk5a
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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Post by kirk5a » Wed Jul 11, 2012 10:57 am

tiltbillings wrote:Okay. Now where in this is "the quality within one that isn't subject to arising or passing away"?
"the signless, nonoccurrence, non-formation, cessation, Nibbána"
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

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tiltbillings
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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Post by tiltbillings » Wed Jul 11, 2012 11:18 am

kirk5a wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Okay. Now where in this is "the quality within one that isn't subject to arising or passing away"?
"the signless, nonoccurrence, non-formation, cessation, Nibbána"
Which, however, does not "exist" before the "change-of-lineage knowledge" arises, before the cessation, and, of course, the terms "the signless, nonoccurrence, non-formation, cessation, Nibbána" all make my point.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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kirk5a
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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Post by kirk5a » Wed Jul 11, 2012 11:32 am

tiltbillings wrote:
kirk5a wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Okay. Now where in this is "the quality within one that isn't subject to arising or passing away"?
"the signless, nonoccurrence, non-formation, cessation, Nibbána"
Which, however, does not "exist" before the "change-of-lineage knowledge" arises, before the cessation, and, of course, the terms "the signless, nonoccurrence, non-formation, cessation, Nibbána" all make my point.
No apparently they do not make your point. Because you continually dispute with "the deathless," and "the signless, nonoccurrence, non-formation, cessation, Nibbana" = "the deathless."
change-of-lineage knowledge arises in him, which takes as its object...Nibbana...which, being the first
adverting, the first concern, the first reaction, to Nibbána as object...
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

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daverupa
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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Post by daverupa » Wed Jul 11, 2012 12:09 pm

:thinking:

That's not the dispute I have seen; I have seen tilt clarifying whether or not such terms become ossified and taken as existent objects, not whether one metaphor equates with another.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]

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