"The Deathless" (amata)

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tiltbillings
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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Post by tiltbillings »

daverupa wrote:
the quality within one that isn't subject to arising or passing away
Would someone mind unpacking this?
The only "quality" that is not subject arising and passing away is that there is no longer any conditioning by greed, hatred, and delusion. Anything else we are entering the realm of Hinduism.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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kirk5a
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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Post by kirk5a »

Ajahn Lee was not a Hindu. What he says there agrees with what is said here in the Visuddhimagga.
[THE FIRST PATH—FIRST NOBLE PERSON]
3. Herein, nothing further needs to be done by one who wants to achieve,
firstly, the knowledge of the first path. For what he needs to do has already been
done by arousing the insight that ends in conformity knowledge.
4. As soon as conformity knowledge has arisen in him in this way, and the
thick murk that hides the truths has been dispelled by the respective force peculiar
to each of the three kinds of conformity (see XXI.129f.), then his consciousness
no longer enters into or settles down on or resolves upon any field of formations
at all, or clings, cleaves or clutches on to it, but retreats, retracts and recoils as
water does from a lotus leaf, and every sign as object, every occurrence as object,
appears as an impediment.
5. Then, while every sign and occurrence appears to him as an impediment,
when conformity knowledge’s repetition has ended, change-of-lineage
knowledge arises in him, which takes as its object the signless, nonoccurrence, non-formation, cessation, Nibbána,—which knowledge passes
out of the lineage, the category, the plane, of the ordinary man and enters the
lineage, the category, the plane, of the Noble Ones,—which, being the first
adverting, the first concern, the first reaction, to Nibbána as object, fulfils the
state of a condition for the path in six ways, as proximity, [673] contiguity,
repetition, decisive-support, absence, and disappearance conditions,—which
is the culminating peak of insight,—which is irrevocable,—of which it is
said:

“How is it that understanding of emergence and turning away from the
external
1
is change-of-lineage knowledge?
“It overcomes arising, thus it is change-of-lineage. It overcomes occurrence …
[the sign … accumulation … rebirth-linking … destiny … generation … rearising … birth … ageing … sickness … death … sorrow … lamentation … ]. It
overcomes despair, thus it is change-of-lineage. It overcomes the sign of
formations externally, thus it is change-of-lineage.
“It enters into
2
non-arising, thus it is change-of-lineage. It enters into nonoccurrence, thus it is change-of-lineage … (etc.) … It enters into non-despair,
thus it is change-of-lineage. It enters into cessation, Nibbána, thus it is changeof-lineage.
“Having overcome arising, it enters into non-arising, thus it is change-oflineage …” (Paþis I 56) and so on, all of which should be quoted.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... on2011.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
p.701
Last edited by kirk5a on Mon Jul 09, 2012 9:47 pm, edited 2 times in total.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
daverupa
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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Post by daverupa »

I don't see the Visuddhimagga saying that the adverting to nibbana is adverting to a quality within one; it's simply not as clear as it might be, when put in such terms, which is why I pressed the point.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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khaaan
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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Post by khaaan »

tiltbillings wrote:The only "quality" that is not subject arising and passing away is that there is no longer any conditioning by greed, hatred, and delusion. Anything else we are entering the realm of Hinduism.
Tilt, I don't understand why you say "there is no longer..." (and the Suttas say "the destruction of ...", which seems to amount amount to the same thing.) Consider the transition fom wordling to ariya. As I understand it, nibbāna interrupts a stream of becoming, which beforehand we refer to as a wordling and afterwards as a stream-winner. So nibbāna is involved, and yet the stream-winner is still conditioned by greed, hatred, and delusion (since the permanent absence of those things is synonymous with the attainment of arahantship). What am I missing?
Nyana
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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Post by Nyana »

kirk5a wrote:“How is it that understanding of emergence and turning away from the
external
1
is change-of-lineage knowledge?
“It overcomes arising, thus it is change-of-lineage. It overcomes occurrence …
[the sign … accumulation … rebirth-linking … destiny … generation … rearising … birth … ageing … sickness … death … sorrow … lamentation … ]. It
overcomes despair, thus it is change-of-lineage. It overcomes the sign of
formations externally, thus it is change-of-lineage.
“It enters into
2
non-arising, thus it is change-of-lineage. It enters into nonoccurrence, thus it is change-of-lineage … (etc.) … It enters into non-despair,
thus it is change-of-lineage. It enters into cessation, Nibbána, thus it is changeof-lineage.
“Having overcome arising, it enters into non-arising, thus it is change-oflineage …” (Paþis I 56) and so on, all of which should be quoted.
This part is quoted from the Paṭisambhidāmagga Ñāṇakathā. With a little help from other passages from the Psm. and the commentary we can unpack what these terms are referring to.

Arising (uppāda) means arising with previous kamma as condition. Continuance (pavatta) means continuance with kamma as condition. Sign (nimitta) means the sign of aggregates with kamma as condition. Accumulation (āyūhana) means the accumulation of kamma for future rebirth. Rebirth-linking (paṭisandhi) means rebirth-linking for future appearance. Destination (gati) means the destination of future birth. Generation (nibbatti) means the generation of the five aggregates, etc. Re-arising (upapatti) means the arising of kamma-result for the one who has been reborn. Birth (jāti) means birth with becoming (bhava) as condition. Aging (jara) means aging with birth as condition, etc. The sign of external fabrications (bahiddhā saṅkhāranimitta) means the sign of fabrications associated with specific defilements, fetters, underlying tendencies, and outflows.

Their cessations are indicated by the terms non-arising (anuppāda), non-continuance (appavatta), signless (animitta), non-accumulation (anāyūhana), non-rebirth-linking (appaṭisandhi) non-destination (agati), non-generation (anibbatti) not-rearising (anupapatti), not-born (ajāti), not-aging (ajara) without sickness (abyādhi), death-free (amata), sorrowless (asoka), without lamentation (aparideva), without despair (anupāyāsa), cessation (nirodha), and extinguishment (nibbāna).

It's important to keep in mind here that the noble paths and fruitions are always cognitions arising with concomitant mental factors. Attaining a noble path entails the arising of these supramundane minds and metal factors and the non-arising (anuppāda), non-continuance (appavatta), ... cessation (nirodha), and extinguishment (nibbāna) of fetters, mental outflows, and underlying tendencies which are terminated by that particular path. And attaining the fruition of that path entails the full extinguishment (parinibbāna) of those same fetters, etc.

For example, when one attains the fruition of stream-entry then any cognitions and mental factors which would arise in the future for a worldling are completely terminated and cease forever. When one attains the fruition of a once-returner then any cognitions and mental factors which would arise in the future for a stream-entrant are completely terminated and cease forever, and so on, for the other two paths and fruitions.
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tiltbillings
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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Post by tiltbillings »

khaaan wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:The only "quality" that is not subject arising and passing away is that there is no longer any conditioning by greed, hatred, and delusion. Anything else we are entering the realm of Hinduism.
Tilt, I don't understand why you say "there is no longer..." (and the Suttas say "the destruction of ...", which seems to amount amount to the same thing.) Consider the transition fom wordling to ariya. As I understand it, nibbāna interrupts a stream of becoming, which beforehand we refer to as a wordling and afterwards as a stream-winner. So nibbāna is involved, and yet the stream-winner is still conditioned by greed, hatred, and delusion (since the permanent absence of those things is synonymous with the attainment of arahantship). What am I missing?
What you are missing is that I was very tired when I wrote the msg in question. I see, as I reread the msg, that the Venerable was referring to stream entry, but I was referring to full awakening. Thanks for the catch.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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kirk5a
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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Post by kirk5a »

Ajaan Lee Dhammadharo wrote: When the qualities of virtue, concentration, and discernment are brought together in fully mature form, the mind is released from physical and mental phenomena through the power of discernment, in line with the teaching,

paññaya paribhavitam cittam
sammadeva asavehi vimuccati:
"When the mind has been matured through discernment, it gains complete release from all mental effluents." The mind is able to let go of physical and mental phenomena. Physical and mental phenomena are not the mind; the mind isn't physical and mental phenomena. The mind isn't virtue, concentration, and discernment.

sabbe dhamma anatta:

The mind doesn't identify any quality as itself, or itself as any of these qualities. It simply is — deathlessness. This is called disbanding because passion, aversion, and delusion have disbanded completely.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/thai/lee/craft.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Ajaan Fuang Jotiko wrote: If you want to gain the insight that will let go of all things in line with their original nature, there has to be a special realization that arises in the act of letting go. If there isn't this realization, your letting go is simply an ordinary, everyday label or perception. It's mundane discernment. But when this special realization arises in the act of letting go — the instant you let go, the result comes right back at you, verifying, certifying what's happened for what it really is: You know. You've let go. You then experience the purity within you.

This is called transcendent discernment. When the realization arises within you, verifying what you've seen and what you've done, that's called transcendent discernment. As long as this realization doesn't arise, your discernment is still mundane. So you keep working at your investigation into things until all the conditions are ripe. Then when they're ripe, there's nothing more you have to do, for transcendent discernment penetrates things completely the very instant it arises. It's not like mundane discernment at all.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/thai ... .html#real" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Upasika Kee Nanayon wrote: In what ways is emptiness empty? Does it mean that everything disappears or is annihilated? Actually, you should know that emptiness doesn’t mean that the mind is annihilated. All that’s annihilated is clinging and attachment. What you have to do is to see what emptiness is like as it actually appears and then not latch onto it. The nature of this emptiness is that it’s deathless within you - this emptiness of self - and yet the mind can still function, know, and read itself. Just don’t label it or latch onto it, that’s all.
http://www.tricycle.com/node/32021" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"It's amazing, lord. It's astounding. For truly, the Blessed One has declared to us the way to cross over the flood by going from one support to the next. But what is the noble liberation?"

"There is the case, Ananda, where a disciple of the noble ones considers this: 'Sensuality here & now; sensuality in lives to come; sensual perceptions here & now; sensual perceptions in lives to come; forms here & now; forms in lives to come; form-perceptions here & now; form-perceptions in lives to come; perceptions of the imperturbable; perceptions of the dimension of nothingness; perceptions of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception: that is an identity, to the extent that there is an identity. This is deathless: the liberation of the mind through lack of clinging/sustenance.'
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

etaṃ amataṃ yadidaṃ anupādā cittassa vimokkho.
This/without death/namely/without clinging/mind/release
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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tiltbillings
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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Post by tiltbillings »

kirk5a wrote:http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

etaṃ amataṃ yadidaṃ anupādā cittassa vimokkho.
This/without death/namely/without clinging/mind/release
And this makes my point.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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kirk5a
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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Post by kirk5a »

tiltbillings wrote:
kirk5a wrote:http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

etaṃ amataṃ yadidaṃ anupādā cittassa vimokkho.
This/without death/namely/without clinging/mind/release
And this makes my point.
Does this also make your point?
"There is that dimension where there is neither earth, nor water, nor fire, nor wind; neither dimension of the infinitude of space, nor dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, nor dimension of nothingness, nor dimension of neither perception nor non-perception; neither this world, nor the next world, nor sun, nor moon. And there, I say, there is neither coming, nor going, nor stasis; neither passing away nor arising: without stance, without foundation, without support [mental object]. This, just this, is the end of stress."

— Ud 8.1
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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tiltbillings
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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Post by tiltbillings »

kirk5a wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
kirk5a wrote:http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

etaṃ amataṃ yadidaṃ anupādā cittassa vimokkho.
This/without death/namely/without clinging/mind/release
And this makes my point.
Does this also make your point?
"There is that dimension where there is neither earth, nor water, nor fire, nor wind; neither dimension of the infinitude of space, nor dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, nor dimension of nothingness, nor dimension of neither perception nor non-perception; neither this world, nor the next world, nor sun, nor moon. And there, I say, there is neither coming, nor going, nor stasis; neither passing away nor arising: without stance, without foundation, without support [mental object]. This, just this, is the end of stress."

— Ud 8.1
Tell us, what is actually being described in that passage.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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kirk5a
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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Post by kirk5a »

tiltbillings wrote:Tell us, what is actually being described in that passage.
"the end of stress" = nibbana.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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tiltbillings
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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Post by tiltbillings »

kirk5a wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Tell us, what is actually being described in that passage.
"the end of stress" = nibbana.
Of course, but is this text talking about nibbana as some sort of thing that exist separately from the arahant, or is this text talking about a type of meditative experience?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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kirk5a
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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Post by kirk5a »

tiltbillings wrote:
kirk5a wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Tell us, what is actually being described in that passage.
"the end of stress" = nibbana.
Of course, but is this text talking about nibbana as some sort of thing that exist separately from the arahant, or is this text talking about a type of meditative experience?
You asked me what that passage describes. I said nibbana, you agree.

So getting back to my question to you, which is, does that passage about nibbana support your point, stated earlier?
tiltbillings wrote: The only "quality" that is not subject arising and passing away is that there is no longer any conditioning by greed, hatred, and delusion. Anything else we are entering the realm of Hinduism.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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tiltbillings
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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Post by tiltbillings »

kirk5a wrote: You asked me what that passage describes. I said nibbana, you agree.

So getting back to my question to you, which is, does that passage about nibbana support your point, stated earlier?
It does it no harm.

And now you can answer my question you: Of course, but is this [Udana 80] text talking about nibbana as some sort of thing that exist separately from the arahant, or is this text talking about a type of meditative experience?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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kirk5a
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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Post by kirk5a »

tiltbillings wrote:It does it no harm.
So if it does it no harm, then you accept that there is "that dimension" (nibbana) where there is neither earth, nor water, nor fire, nor wind and so on, and that is not entering the domain of Hinduism. Yet you cannot abide that dimension, nibbana, being called, "the deathless."
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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