Do Buddhist believe in god?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
Post Reply
User avatar
Cittasanto
Posts: 6646
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:31 pm
Location: Ellan Vannin
Contact:

Re: Do Buddhist believe in god?

Post by Cittasanto »

tiltbillings wrote:
Cittasanto wrote: wasn' saying it once enough without creating ambiguity?
No ambiguity.
well it did raise the question if they were gods or not, so yes there was ambiguity!
The Buddha never defined Atheism to my knowledge, although it has been defined through convention.
One can easily draw from the Buddha's teachings basic principles that would give us a Buddhist understanding of atheism.
Although i should note Atheism is also a group, just like Buddhism is, and just as Buddhists wouldn't accept their "name" being redefined, I would imagine Atheists would also have some objection.
Good heavens. Seriously, now. Atheism is not a unified, monolithic group with a singular definition of what atheism means any more than vegetarians are a unified monolithic group with a singular definition of vegetarianism. Just like there are differing understanding and definitions of vegetarianism, so there are for atheists, and it is not unreasonable to talk about Buddhist atheism just as we can talk about lacto-ovo vegetarian in contrast to vegetarians who do not eat eggs, but will drink milk.
well contrast it to buddhists, Vajrayana, Mahayana, Theravada, ask each what Buddhanature is or skillful means, or the most important aspect or practice of Buddhism is and you would get a variety of answers, not all will be compatable with other schools, or better yet the usefulness of gods, talk to a theravadin you get one answer, talk to a Vajrayanan and you get an internal war about the right one to praise.
or chan/zen and the fifth precept...
yet there is a core set of beliefs which are not exclusive to one group, or individual.
hence Atheists can call themselves atheists and what their main common belief is is instantly recognizable, organized in a monolithic way or not, and that is a lack of belief in god or gods. although I have heard of several atheistic societies. atheists.org has been going since the early 1960 btw who state this in their about regarding what you want to do
Why should atheists allow theists to define who atheists are? Do other minorities allow the majority to define their character, views, and opinions? No, they do not. So why does everyone expect atheists to lie down and accept the definition placed upon them by the world’s theists? Atheists will define themselves.
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
User avatar
Way~Farer
Posts: 130
Joined: Tue Jun 26, 2012 11:38 pm
Location: Sydney

Re: Do Buddhist believe in god?

Post by Way~Farer »

I agree with the above.
Tiltbillings wrote:See the essay: "The Buddhist Attitude to God"
That essay disputes God on the basis of the definition that he is 'maker and preserver of all things visible'. But the same arguments can be used by materialists against Dhamma, 'that which upholds, supports or maintains the regulatory order of the universe'. If you ask any scientific materialist whether there was, or could be, any 'evidence' for 'dhamma', what would their answer be? It would be very similar to the arguments presented here against the idea of God.

There are very powerful forces in the world that are opposed to the idea of anything holy, spiritual or religious. In light of this, I don't think it is prudent for Buddhism to place itself in the ranks of the atheists. You can say this, and still resolutely oppose the evils of organized religion, and the shortcomings of institutional Christianity. As I do.
User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23046
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Do Buddhist believe in god?

Post by tiltbillings »

Cittasanto wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
Cittasanto wrote: wasn' saying it once enough without creating ambiguity?
No ambiguity.
well it did raise the question if they were gods or not, so yes there was ambiguity!
For you. For me it was a matter of emphasis.


Atheists will define themselves.
And there is, of course, a fair amount of variation in that, including Buddhist atheists.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23046
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Do Buddhist believe in god?

Post by tiltbillings »

sunyavadin wrote: Dhamma, 'that which upholds, supports or maintains the regulatory order of the universe'.
Interesting wording. Where is this "definition" from?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Judai
Posts: 42
Joined: Fri Jul 06, 2012 4:58 am

Re: Do Buddhist believe in god?

Post by Judai »

Hey tiltbilling
You asked where is the Buddha,and did he crwate the cosmos.

My reply:if you are implying nhilism,and anhilation of the existing being then,all i can say is the Buddha taught thoae things were wrong view,the Buddha never taught that life ceases not once not ever.The Buddha stated that after death their is always the continuation of an existing being,whether its eternal life in rebirth,or eternal life as the Buddha life itself is eternal.their is no nhilism,or anhilationism doctrine in Buddhism its simply listed as wrong view.

With that said the Buddha is eternal,everlating,unborn,and uncreatedand as he stated the teacher of immortality so where do you think he is?

As far as the cosmos is voncerned the cosmos is samsarasan its not of the Buddha its of mara,and have u ever heard of emanationIsm?more in line with karma than creatiSm.

Lastly the TOS is do Buddhists belive in god the answer is YES
You mono and poly ideas of god or gods either way they are still gods whether its the god odin or the god of the bible or the gods in buddhism.
And an atheist doesnt belive that a god exists PERIOD,whether is mono or poly idea of god or gods,
An agnostic is one one states a god Might exist.

So no we are not atheists,also gods in are literal not metophoric if you want ill let the suttas tell you that for me?
User avatar
Way~Farer
Posts: 130
Joined: Tue Jun 26, 2012 11:38 pm
Location: Sydney

Re: Do Buddhist believe in god?

Post by Way~Farer »

tiltbillings wrote:
sunyavadin wrote: Dhamma, 'that which upholds, supports or maintains the regulatory order of the universe'.
Interesting wording. Where is this "definition" from?
It is a dictionary definition, although I accept that 'Dhamma' is one of the key Buddhist terms that is very hard to directly translate into English. Nevertheless, I think we would agree that 'dhamma' implies, or even is, a 'moral law' or 'moral order'. After all one of the historic names of the Buddha is 'the Buddha of the Good Law'. But the very concept of 'moral law' is something that would be called into question in post-Scientific Revolution thought. It is outside the scientific-secular view of life, which believes that the only things worthy of the name 'law' are scientific and that everything has to be explainable with reference to those.
In After Virtue, Alisdair McIntyre has suggested that a dichotomy between 'is' and 'ought', between 'fact' and 'value', is a modern phenomenon. Indeed McIntyre argues that, until modern times, the distinction between 'is' and 'ought' was not made. Western thought may then make a distinction between thought and action, between fact and value, that was not made in India. This point has been made by Paul Williams:
In the Indian context it would have been axiomatic that liberation comes from discerning how things actually are [yathabhutam], the true nature of things.
From Paul Fuller, The Notion of Ditthi in Theravada Buddhism

So this is the idea is that 'if you see how things really are, this is the source of spiritual liberation'. And this is an intrinsically religious or spiritual view. As far as the hardcore sciences are concerned 'how things really are' is completely devoid of meaning. (I myself regard that as a ditthi but that's a whole other argument.)

I do understand the attitude of Buddhism to the Christian God, and accept that there is no reason for the Buddhist to believe in or accept that God. But at the same time, viewed from the perspective of the modern scientific-secular mindset, Christianity and Buddhism share a concept of 'moral law' which has much in common. That is why many of the things actually said by the Buddha and by Jesus Christ are very similar, despite the many differences in their religious context. (See Jesus and Buddha: The Parallel Sayings.)

The way I choose to interpret it, is that Buddhism understands the universe in terms of the moral order, dhamma, while Christianity sees it through a theistic interpretation. But I would not like to think that they kind of 'cancel each other out'.
User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23046
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Do Buddhist believe in god?

Post by tiltbillings »

sunyavadin wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
sunyavadin wrote: Dhamma, 'that which upholds, supports or maintains the regulatory order of the universe'.
Interesting wording. Where is this "definition" from?
It is a dictionary definition
Which dictionary?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
User avatar
Way~Farer
Posts: 130
Joined: Tue Jun 26, 2012 11:38 pm
Location: Sydney

Re: Do Buddhist believe in god?

Post by Way~Farer »

Many different sources:
Wikipedia wrote:Dharma: that which upholds, supports or maintains the regulatory order of the universe; means Law or Natural Law and is a concept of central importance in Indian philosophy and religion
The Free Dictionary wrote: Dharma:

1. Hinduism & Buddhism
a. The principle or law that orders the universe.
b. Individual conduct in conformity with this principle.
c. The essential function or nature of a thing.
About.com Buddhism wrote:Dharma in both Hinduism and Buddhism refers to the principle or law that orders the universe.
Hindupedia wrote:The Sanskrit word Dharma has no direct translation into English. Among other things, it can be thought of as righteousness in thought, word, and action. It comes from the root Dhr, which means to uphold, sustain, or uplift. Thus another interpretation of the word in English would be 'the collection of natural and universal laws that uphold, sustain, or uplift.' i.e. law of being; law of nature; individual nature; prescribed duty; social and personal duties; moral code; civil law; code of conduct; morality; way of life; practice; observance; justice; righteousness; religion; religiosity; harmony.
Dictionary.Reference.Com wrote:1.essential quality or character, as of the cosmos or one's own nature.
2. conformity to religious law, custom, duty, or one's own quality or character.
3. virtue.
4. religion.
5. law, especially religious law.
User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23046
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Do Buddhist believe in god?

Post by tiltbillings »

sunyavadin wrote:Many different sources:
Wikipedia wrote:Dharma: that which upholds, supports or maintains the regulatory order of the universe; means Law or Natural Law and is a concept of central importance in Indian philosophy and religion
The Dhamma does not uphold anything as far as I have seen in suttas. The Dhamma is not some thing that does anything. It does not uphold, support, or maintain anything. The Dhamma is, rather, the truth of how the universe functions.

Now, I could, of course, be quite wrong, but if I am, I'd love to see the suttas that show that the Dhamma is an active thing, active force, that upholds, supports or maintains the regulatory order of the universe. And Hindu notions need not apply.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23046
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Do Buddhist believe in god?

Post by tiltbillings »

sunyavadin wrote: The way I choose to interpret it, is that Buddhism understands the universe in terms of the moral order, dhamma, while Christianity sees it through a theistic interpretation. But I would not like to think that they kind of 'cancel each other out'.
The fundamental differences in understanding of the universe/world are radical:
  • "The assumption that a God is the cause (of the world, etc.) is based on the false belief in the eternal self (atman, i.e. permanent spiritual substance, essence or personality); but that belief has to be abandoned, if one has clearly understood that everything is impermanent and subject to suffering." Abhidharmakosha 5, 8 vol IV, p 19
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23046
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Do Buddhist believe in god?

Post by tiltbillings »

Atheism’ is a much simpler concept than ‘Christianity’ or ‘Hinduism’, but the word atheism is still used in a wide variety of ways.

This can cause confusion. Someone may announce that she is an atheist, and her listeners may assume she is one type of atheist, when really she is a different type of atheist.

So to clear things up, here are 17 kinds of atheism, organized into 7 sets. Some kinds of atheism can be combined in a person, and some cannot. For example, it is perfectly consistent to be an agnostic, narrow, friendly atheist. But one cannot simultaneously be both a passive atheist and a militant atheist.

This list is not definitive. There are many ways to organize and label different kinds of atheism.

For brevity’s sake, I have substituted “gods” for the usual phrase “God or gods.”


1. Difference in Knowledge
A gnostic atheist not only believes there are no gods, he also claims to know there are no gods.

An agnostic atheist doesn’t believe in gods, but doesn’t claim to know there are no gods.

2. Difference in Affirmation
A negative atheist merely lacks a belief in gods. He is also called a weak atheist or an implicit atheist.

A positive atheist not only lacks a belief in gods, but also affirms that no gods exist. He is also called a strong atheist or an explicit atheist.

3. Difference in Scope
A broad atheist denies the existence of all gods: Zeus, Thor, Yahweh, Shiva, and so on.

A narrow atheist denies the existence of the traditional Western omni-God who is all-good, all-knowing, and all-powerful.

4. Difference in the Assessed Rationality of Theism
An unfriendly atheist believes no one is justified in believing that gods exist.

An indifferent atheist doesn’t have a belief on whether or not others are justified in believing that gods exist.

A friendly atheist believes that some theists are justified in believing that gods exist.

5. Difference in Openness
A closet atheist has not yet revealed his disbelief to most people.

An open atheist has revealed his disbelief to most people.

6. Difference in Action
A passive atheist doesn’t believe in god but doesn’t try to influence the world in favor of atheism.

An evangelical atheist tries to persuade others to give up theistic belief.

An active atheist labors on behalf of causes that specifically benefit atheists (but not necessarily just atheists). For example, he strives against discrimination toward atheists, or he strives in favor of separation of church and state.

A militant atheist uses violence to promote atheism or destroy religion. (Often, the term “militant atheist” is misapplied to non-violent evangelical atheists like Richard Dawkins. But to preserve the parallel with the “militant Christian” who bombs abortion clinics or the “militant Muslim” suicide bomber, I prefer the definition of “militant atheist” that assumes acts of violence.)

7. Difference in Religiosity
A religious atheist practices religion but does not believe in gods.

A non-religious atheist does not practice religion.

Of course, there are many more “kinds” of atheism than this, for one may be a Republican atheist or a Democratic atheist, a short atheist or a tall atheist, a Caucasian atheist or an Hispanic atheist, a foundationalist atheist or a coherentist atheist, an enchanted atheist or a disenchanted atheist.
-- http://commonsenseatheism.com/?p=6487" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Different types of atheism are neatly outlined here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
User avatar
Cittasanto
Posts: 6646
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:31 pm
Location: Ellan Vannin
Contact:

Re: Do Buddhist believe in god?

Post by Cittasanto »

tiltbillings wrote:For you. For me it was a matter of emphasis.
it still raised the question. whether it was for me or another, the "emphasis" created ambiguity.

Atheists will define themselves.
And there is, of course, a fair amount of variation in that, including Buddhist atheists.
But this fair amount of variation doesn't include the existence or inclusion of any god.
A number of Atheist do concede that they can not be 100% certain as to the actual existence or lack thereof of any god, however, that still doesn't equate to them saying they have a belief in such an existence.
An individual may or may not be an atheist and a Buddhist, but that doesn't mean it describes any Buddhism, or is a warranted description of Buddhism.
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
User avatar
Way~Farer
Posts: 130
Joined: Tue Jun 26, 2012 11:38 pm
Location: Sydney

Re: Do Buddhist believe in god?

Post by Way~Farer »

tiltbillings wrote:
sunyavadin wrote:
Wikipedia wrote:Dharma: that which upholds, supports or maintains the regulatory order of the universe; means Law or Natural Law and is a concept of central importance in Indian philosophy and religion
The Dhamma does not uphold anything as far as I have seen in suttas. The Dhamma is not some thing that does anything. It does not uphold, support, or maintain anything. The Dhamma is, rather, the truth of how the universe functions.
The very word 'Dhamma' comes from the root meaning 'that which upholds'. It is indeed as you say, 'the truth of how the universe functions.' So your last sentence contradicts the one before it. How can 'the truth of how the universe functions' not be 'something which upholds, maintains and supports?' It does not 'do' anything, because it is not something that exists on the level of phenomena, but it is assumed by the entire canon.
User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23046
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Do Buddhist believe in god?

Post by tiltbillings »

Cittasanto wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:For you. For me it was a matter of emphasis.
it still raised the question. whether it was for me or another, the "emphasis" created ambiguity.
And now you know.

Atheists will define themselves.
And there is, of course, a fair amount of variation in that, including Buddhist atheists.
But this fair amount of variation doesn't include the existence or inclusion of any god.
According to you.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23046
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Do Buddhist believe in god?

Post by tiltbillings »

sunyavadin wrote: The very word 'Dhamma' comes from the root meaning 'that which upholds'.
Indeed it does, but how words are used it what gives them meaning.
It is indeed as you say, 'the truth of how the universe functions.' So your last sentence contradicts the one before it. How can 'the truth of how the universe functions' not be 'something which upholds, maintains and supports?' It does not 'do' anything, because it is not something that exists on the level of phenomena, but it is assumed by the entire canon.
This is a contradiction you are importing into the Buddha-Dhamma. You are turning truth into a thing, which the Buddha did not do.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Post Reply