How common is stream entry?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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khlawng
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by khlawng »

tiltbillings wrote:Let me ask you: is every experience of a sense of transcending the self stream entry?
With proper right effort, followed by guided right concentration and widom, enough experience would lead to the eventual conclusion.
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retrofuturist
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
Viscid wrote:Only Buddhists can be stream-enterers? It seems odd, if stream-entry is a real phenomenon, to limit it to people of a single religion..
You need Right View, as Right View is the forerunner of the Noble Eightfold Path.

You don't have some magic "stream-entry" moment and discover Right View afterwards. That is backwards.

Whether the one with Right View considers themselves "Buddhist", is only relevant to the extent that it impacts the ability to drop the first three fetters.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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LonesomeYogurt
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by LonesomeYogurt »

Viscid wrote:Only Buddhists can be stream-enterers? It seems odd, if stream-entry is a real phenomenon, to limit it people of a single religion..
Right view is an integral part of stream-entering. Without a faith in the Buddha's teachings, there is no progression down the path. People can be intelligent, kind, loving, decent, moral people but that doesn't make them stream-enterers.
khlawng wrote:You need not be a Buddhist. Hence the term paccebuddha .
A paccebuddha is still a Buddhist in that he or she would agree with the teachings of the Buddha. A Buddhist is someone who affirms the eternal Dhamma as rediscovered in this world by Gotama. That fits a paccebuddha just as much as it fits you or me.


*Edit: Beat me to it Retro haha.
Gain and loss, status and disgrace,
censure and praise, pleasure and pain:
these conditions among human beings are inconstant,
impermanent, subject to change.

Knowing this, the wise person, mindful,
ponders these changing conditions.
Desirable things don’t charm the mind,
undesirable ones bring no resistance.

His welcoming and rebelling are scattered,
gone to their end,
do not exist.
- Lokavipatti Sutta

Stuff I write about things.
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retrofuturist
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Re: ...---... How common is stream entry?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Mike,
mikenz66 wrote:That "practice" and "abandonment" doesn't seem to be trivial for the average person, judging from the generic descriptions in the suttas of gradual training, and so on.
It's worth ensuring one doesn't apply arahant standards to the sotipanna. The article I linked to at the bottom of page one of this topic suggests that stream-entry is the start of the training, rather than the by-product of years of laborious trial-and-error "Dhamma practice" merely to enter the stream. The meaning and status of the word "sekha" (trainee) would also suggest that to be so.

The article also colourfully points out that the difference between stream-entry and arahantship may well be up to a full 420 or so years worth of dedicated (gradual) practice.
mikenz66 wrote:I've no idea what the "couple of prevailing Brahman practices and beliefs" you refer to in your post are, though.
The practices and beliefs are atman-theory and belief in the efficacy of rites and rituals (in contrast to kamma)... a broad-brush statement on exactly which rites and rituals are practiced isn't really relevant, as they may differ amongst individual brahmans. You, not being brahman, needn't be concerned unless you have your own rituals or metaphysical beliefs to let go of.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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marc108
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by marc108 »

divine,

i would suggest you pay a visit to some respected Monastics or Lay Teachers and see if they are able to confirm your experience as true Stream Entry. if it is the case you gained Stream Entry with little to no meditation experience, you are going to need some guidance I'm sure. if its the case that you are wrong, you are going to want to know so you can continue to strive towards Stream Entry.
"It's easy for us to connect with what's wrong with us... and not so easy to feel into, or to allow us, to connect with what's right and what's good in us."
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khlawng
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by khlawng »

LonesomeYogurt wrote: A paccebuddha is still a Buddhist in that he or she would agree with the teachings of the Buddha. A Buddhist is someone who affirms the eternal Dhamma as rediscovered in this world by Gotama. That fits a paccebuddha just as much as it fits you or me.
Oh my understanding was that a Buddhist today, you and I, is one that relies on the Dhamma taught by The Buddha (Gotama) to gain awakening. The Dhamma, being the universal truth, as such, cannot be claimed by anyone or any religion including Buddhists. As such, there are beings who never heard of the Buddha's teaching, but gained enlightenment through their own effort, hence the term, private Buddha or paccebuddha.
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Cittasanto
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by Cittasanto »

Viscid wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
divine wrote:And while doing all this, we should follow the path.
The problem is for all your enthusiasm, and for your claim of being a stream winner, you have not shown you really know anything about the Buddha's teachings.
Only Buddhists can be stream-enterers? It seems odd, if stream-entry is a real phenomenon, to limit it to people of a single religion..
it is unlikely, although the texts as I understand them seam to indicate that it would be unlikely to find the qualities of a stream enterer in someone outside the Dhammavinaya mainly because once they find the teachings that is where they stay and the practice of other traditions due to one form of wrong view or another within the philosophical framework inhibits the attainment.
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But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
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divine
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by divine »

@ marc108 Thanks for this advice, I have been asking some people I have met that have meditation experience and consider themselves buddhists. The thing is I can't get myself to claim anything, neither stream entry nor experiences, some of the reasons I'm sure you can imagine. I'm here talking to you because of the anonymity of the internet. But the bottom line is, I don't need it. But help with meditation, sure!
One should believe it could be beneficial to post information about attainment in a thread like "How common is stream entry?", but I had no idea you are regularly vitnessing these claims and often there are something else behind it. You have been great giving only kind advice and healthy scepticism. Metta!
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tiltbillings
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by tiltbillings »

Viscid wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
divine wrote:And while doing all this, we should follow the path.
The problem is for all your enthusiasm, and for your claim of being a stream winner, you have not shown you really know anything about the Buddha's teachings.
Only Buddhists can be stream-enterers? It seems odd, if stream-entry is a real phenomenon, to limit it to people of a single religion..
Well, if one takes the Buddha's teachings seriously, not odd at all.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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tiltbillings
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by tiltbillings »

khlawng wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Let me ask you: is every experience of a sense of transcending the self stream entry?
With proper right effort, followed by guided right concentration and widom, enough experience would lead to the eventual conclusion.
That does not answer the question put to you.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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tiltbillings
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by tiltbillings »

divine wrote:But the bottom line is, I don't need it.
If you are as you claim, you would not being saying that.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
divine
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by divine »

This sounds awfully like a personal meaning and an invitation to convince you, but I won't accept it.
tiltbillings wrote:
divine wrote:But the bottom line is, I don't need it.
If you are as you claim, you would not being saying that.
One should believe it could be beneficial to post information about attainment in a thread like "How common is stream entry?", but I had no idea you are regularly vitnessing these claims and often there are something else behind it. You have been great giving only kind advice and healthy scepticism. Metta!
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khlawng
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by khlawng »

tiltbillings wrote:That does not answer the question put to you.
can you help me rephrase that question in a simpler manner and maybe, if time permits, expand it a little? I am very curious about what you are asking.
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tiltbillings
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by tiltbillings »

divine wrote:This sounds awfully like a personal meaning and an invitation to convince you, but I won't accept it.
tiltbillings wrote:
divine wrote:But the bottom line is, I don't need it.
If you are as you claim, you would not being saying that.
I do not need convincing. Most likely you had yourself a self-transcending experience, and you are trying to find a slot within which to plug it so that you can understand what it is with which you are now identifying yourself, and you seem to think Buddhism fits it. If, however, you had the sort of insight of which the Buddha speaks, you would present yourself a bit differently, in line with an insight that you seem to be seriously missing. But it is important in this quest of yours to keep an open mind, not lock yourself into any experience, no matter spiffy it may seem, and in time you might get it, but in the mean time, listen and learn.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
divine
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by divine »

I think I'll leave it at this. Take care, guys!

:focus:
One should believe it could be beneficial to post information about attainment in a thread like "How common is stream entry?", but I had no idea you are regularly vitnessing these claims and often there are something else behind it. You have been great giving only kind advice and healthy scepticism. Metta!
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