The mind by Ajahn Chah

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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DarwidHalim
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The mind by Ajahn Chah

Post by DarwidHalim »

I saw this teaching from Ajahn chah at the back of Awaken Magazine.

Frankly, the way Ajahn chah teach is not a typical Theravada master. His teaching style is very similar to the zen, Mahamudra, Mahasandi style.

Does anyone know whether he has a contact or dharma sharing with other traditions?

Based on what I know is his teaching is coming purely from his meditative insight. He is very seldom quote any Sutta, like what scholars normally do.
THE MIND

About this mind...
In truth there is nothin really wrong with it.
It is intrinsically pure.
Within itself, it's already peaceful.
That the mind is not peaceful these days
is because it follows moods.

The real mind doesn't have anything to it,
it is simply (an aspect of) Nature.
It becomes peaceful or agitated
because moods deceive it.
That gladness or sadness
is not the mind,
but only a mood coming to deceive us.

The untrained mind gets lost
and follows these things,
It forget itself.
Then we think it is we
who are upset or at ease or whatever.

But really this mind of ours is inherently
unmoving and peaceful...
really peaceful!
Just like a leaf which is still
As long as no wind blows.
If a wind comes up, the lead flutters -
The fluttering is due to the wind.
Our 'fluttering' is due to those sense impressions;
The mind follows them.

If it doesn't follow them, it doesn't 'flutter'
If we know fully
the true nature of sense impressions
we will be unmoved.
Our practice is simply to see
the Original Mind.
So we must train the mind
to know those sense impressions, and
not get lost in them.
To make it peaceful.

Thus is the aim
of all this difficult practice
we put ourselves through.
I am not here nor there.
I am not right nor wrong.
I do not exist neither non-exist.
I am not I nor non-I.
I am not in samsara nor nirvana.
To All Buddhas, I bow down for the teaching of emptiness. Thank You!
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Sam Vara
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Re: The mind by Ajahn Chah

Post by Sam Vara »

Based on what I know is his teaching is coming purely from his meditative insight. He is very seldom quote any Sutta, like what scholars normally do.
Someone who studied under him told me that Ajahn Chah tended to discourage westerners from too much reading, because their heads were already filled with ideas.

He did, however, have a deep knowledge of the Suttas and often encouraged the Thai monks to read.
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Viscid
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Re: The mind by Ajahn Chah

Post by Viscid »

I think the similarities of Chah's teaching and Zen is evidence of a core Buddhist philosophy that emerges from authentic practice.
"What holds attention determines action." - William James
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gavesako
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Re: The mind by Ajahn Chah

Post by gavesako »

Western readers see what they want to see in Ajahn Chah: this quote has been a bit "spiced up" in the English translation to sound like something out of Advaita teachings or similar (because the translators were into that). But if you read it in Thai and put it in the context of Ajahn Chah's teachings in general, there is nothing that strange about it, he is just talking about the way the mind gets conditioned to certain habits which is a normal Theravada explanation. And there are lots of references to Suttas and similes taken from Suttas all through his talks. He only came across Thai translations of some Zen masters at the end of his life.
Bhikkhu Gavesako
Kiṃkusalagavesī anuttaraṃ santivarapadaṃ pariyesamāno... (MN 26)

Access to Insight - Theravada texts
Ancient Buddhist Texts - Translations and history of Pali texts
Dhammatalks.org - Sutta translations
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Viscid
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Re: The mind by Ajahn Chah

Post by Viscid »

gavesako wrote:this quote has been a bit "spiced up" in the English translation to sound like something out of Advaita teachings or similar (because the translators were into that). But if you read it in Thai and put it in the context of Ajahn Chah's teachings in general,
Our practice is simply to see
the Original Mind.
So I suppose 'citta' is what's being translated into 'Original Mind' to sound more zenny/advaitist?
"What holds attention determines action." - William James
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Cittasanto
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Re: The mind by Ajahn Chah

Post by Cittasanto »

[quote="DarwidHalim"]I saw this teaching from Ajahn chah at the back of Awaken Magazine.

Frankly, the way Ajahn chah teach is not a typical Theravada master. His teaching style is very similar to the zen, Mahamudra, Mahasandi style.

Does anyone know whether he has a contact or dharma sharing with other traditions?

I know he had contact with burmese monks :juggling:
but seriously, he seamed to be very flexible with his teaching and if something worked that is what mattered to him, but be careful with translations they may not represent what the original is (as Ajahn Thanissaro in an article/talk and Ajahn Gavesako have mentioned here.)

Apart from when he first met Ajahn Sumedho (who at the time was using transcribed talks by a chan(zen) monk who was 112 at the time of the retreat (if I remember although 104 is a possibility) which was transcribed I don't think he has had any influential contact with zen or tibetan monks (although his disciples have such as Ajahn Amaro & Ajahn Sumedho)
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
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bodom
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Re: The mind by Ajahn Chah

Post by bodom »

Does anyone know whether he has a contact or dharma sharing with other traditions?
He read the The Platform Sutra a Zen text:
Q: Have you ever looked at the Altar Sutra of the 6th Patriarch, Hui Neng?

Answer: Hui Neng's wisdom is very keen. It is very profound teaching,not easy for beginners to understand. But if you practise with our discipline and with patience, if you practise not-clinging, you will eventually understand. Once I had a disciple who stayed in a grass-roofed hut. It rained often that rainy season and one day a strong wind blew off half the roof. He did not bother to fix it, just let it rain in. Several days passed and I asked him about his hut. He said he was practising not-clinging. This is not-clinging without wisdom. It is about the same as the equanimity of a water buffalo. If you live a good life and live simply, if you are patient and unselfish, you will understand the wisdom of Hui Neng.
http://www.buddhanet.net/bodhiny2.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

:anjali:
Liberation is the inevitable fruit of the path and is bound to blossom forth when there is steady and persistent practice. The only requirements for reaching the final goal are two: to start and to continue. If these requirements are met there is no doubt the goal will be attained. This is the Dhamma, the undeviating law.

- BB
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bodom
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Re: The mind by Ajahn Chah

Post by bodom »

On another occasion one his disciples read him The Heart Sutra a famous Zen text:
Ajahn Chah listened to one of his disciples recite the heart Sutra. When he had finished, Ajahn Chah said, " No emptiness either…no bodhisatta." He then asked, where did the sutra come from?" it's repute to have been spoken by the Buddha," the follower replied. "No Buddha," retorted Ajahn Chah. Then he said, " this is talking about deep wisdom, beyond all conventions. How could we teach without them? We have to have names for things, isn't that so?"


http://www.dhammatalks.net/Books/Ajahn_ ... n_Chah.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Also in this talk he mentions having read a book on Zen:

The Two Faces of Reality
http://www.ajahnchah.org/book/Two_Faces_Reality1.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

:anjali:
Liberation is the inevitable fruit of the path and is bound to blossom forth when there is steady and persistent practice. The only requirements for reaching the final goal are two: to start and to continue. If these requirements are met there is no doubt the goal will be attained. This is the Dhamma, the undeviating law.

- BB
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Cittasanto
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Re: The mind by Ajahn Chah

Post by Cittasanto »

Thanks Bodom
:anjali:
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
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bodom
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Re: The mind by Ajahn Chah

Post by bodom »

Cittasanto wrote:Thanks Bodom
:anjali:
You bet.

For a long time I struggled between identifying as a Theravadan Buddhist or a Soto Zen Buddhist. I loved both traditions and had gone back and forth only increasing my doubt and suffering as I knew if I wanted to make any progress I would have to settle on one or the other. Coming across the Thai Forest teachings and most importantly Ajahn Chah's, really helped bridge the gap between the two. Ajahn Chah while solidly grounded in the Theravadan tradition had that sharp sting to his teachings, much like that of the old Zen masters. :sage:

:anjali:
Liberation is the inevitable fruit of the path and is bound to blossom forth when there is steady and persistent practice. The only requirements for reaching the final goal are two: to start and to continue. If these requirements are met there is no doubt the goal will be attained. This is the Dhamma, the undeviating law.

- BB
danieLion
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Re: The mind by Ajahn Chah

Post by danieLion »

bodom wrote:For a long time I struggled between identifying as a Theravadan Buddhist or a Soto Zen Buddhist. I loved both traditions and had gone back and forth only increasing my doubt and suffering as I knew if I wanted to make any progress I would have to settle on one or the other. Coming across the Thai Forest teachings and most importantly Ajahn Chah's, really helped bridge the gap between the two. Ajahn Chah while solidly grounded in the Theravadan tradition had that sharp sting to his teachings, much like that of the old Zen masters. :sage:

:anjali:
HI bodom,
I've noticed this about several other modern Ajahns, especially students of Ajahn Chah, like Sumedho and Amaro. I've heard Reverend Sumedho say when he first came to Ajahn Chah he told Ajahn Chah he mainly did some Zen practice I forget the name of and Ajahn Chah told him to just continue with that.

Other candidates? Maha Boowa? Ajahn Lee?

If we trust the source (and I do), we should no be surprised at similarities. Right?

metta
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DarwidHalim
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Re: The mind by Ajahn Chah

Post by DarwidHalim »

gavesako wrote:Western readers see what they want to see in Ajahn Chah: this quote has been a bit "spiced up" in the English translation to sound like something out of Advaita teachings or similar (because the translators were into that). But if you read it in Thai and put it in the context of Ajahn Chah's teachings in general, there is nothing that strange about it, he is just talking about the way the mind gets conditioned to certain habits which is a normal Theravada explanation. And there are lots of references to Suttas and similes taken from Suttas all through his talks. He only came across Thai translations of some Zen masters at the end of his life.
Hi Bhante,

Is it possible that we have your translation as well, so we can see how far the things have been spiced up?
I am not here nor there.
I am not right nor wrong.
I do not exist neither non-exist.
I am not I nor non-I.
I am not in samsara nor nirvana.
To All Buddhas, I bow down for the teaching of emptiness. Thank You!
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bodom
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Re: The mind by Ajahn Chah

Post by bodom »

Hi danieLion
Other candidates?


Within the Thai tradition Buddadasa Bhikkhu often mentions Zen in his writings

Larry Rosenberg and Gil Fronsdal come to mind as well, both vipassana teachers with extensive backgrounds in the Zen tradition and have a Zen flavor to their teachings.

Larry Rosenberg
http://www.cimc.info/teachers.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Gil Fronsdal
http://www.insightmeditationcenter.org/teachers/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
If we trust the source (and I do), we should no be surprised at similarities. Right?


All the varied traditions of Buddhism have non clinging and liberation as the final goal. Whether one takes the Theravadin or Zen path matters not as they all have the same destination.

:anjali:
Liberation is the inevitable fruit of the path and is bound to blossom forth when there is steady and persistent practice. The only requirements for reaching the final goal are two: to start and to continue. If these requirements are met there is no doubt the goal will be attained. This is the Dhamma, the undeviating law.

- BB
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bodom
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Re: The mind by Ajahn Chah

Post by bodom »

Hi Bhante,

Is it possible that we have your translation as well, so we can see how far the things have been spiced up?
Regardless if the above quote from Ajahn Chah has been "spiced up" a bit to sound Zennist or whatever there is still nothing in the quote that is not in agreeance with any of the teachings of the Buddha.

:anjali:
Liberation is the inevitable fruit of the path and is bound to blossom forth when there is steady and persistent practice. The only requirements for reaching the final goal are two: to start and to continue. If these requirements are met there is no doubt the goal will be attained. This is the Dhamma, the undeviating law.

- BB
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Cittasanto
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Re: The mind by Ajahn Chah

Post by Cittasanto »

danieLion wrote:
bodom wrote:For a long time I struggled between identifying as a Theravadan Buddhist or a Soto Zen Buddhist. I loved both traditions and had gone back and forth only increasing my doubt and suffering as I knew if I wanted to make any progress I would have to settle on one or the other. Coming across the Thai Forest teachings and most importantly Ajahn Chah's, really helped bridge the gap between the two. Ajahn Chah while solidly grounded in the Theravadan tradition had that sharp sting to his teachings, much like that of the old Zen masters. :sage:

:anjali:
HI bodom,
I've noticed this about several other modern Ajahns, especially students of Ajahn Chah, like Sumedho and Amaro. I've heard Reverend Sumedho say when he first came to Ajahn Chah he told Ajahn Chah he mainly did some Zen practice I forget the name of and Ajahn Chah told him to just continue with that.

Other candidates? Maha Boowa? Ajahn Lee?

If we trust the source (and I do), we should no be surprised at similarities. Right?

metta
I have a book in pdf form by the monk whos practices I believe he was using, see my first post here, and I will post the book later.
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
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