Sutta supporting khanikavada (momentariness)

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danieLion
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Re: Sutta supporting khanikavada (momentariness)

Post by danieLion » Sat Jun 09, 2012 6:29 am

FYI:

http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 73&start=0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Topic title: "Living In The Present Moment" (can it be supported by the suttas?)

metta

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Re: Sutta supporting khanikavada (momentariness)

Post by mikenz66 » Sat Jun 09, 2012 6:33 am

Hi Daniel,

I don't think that the issue of "being in the present moment" is the same as the issue of "momentariness".

:anjali:
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Re: Sutta supporting khanikavada (momentariness)

Post by ancientbuddhism » Sat Jun 09, 2012 4:55 pm

Whenever this topic comes up I think of the following verse in Aṅguttara Nikāya:
  • nāhaṃ, bhikkhave, aññaṃ ekadhammampi samanupassāmi yaṃ evaṃ lahuparivattaṃ yathayidaṃ cittaṃ. yāvañcidaṃ, bhikkhave, upamāpi na sukarā yāva lahuparivattaṃ cittanti.

    “Bhikkhus, I do not even know of one other phenomena that is of the nature to quickly change as the mind, so much so, bhikkhus, that to give an example of this quickly changing mind is not easily done.” (AN.1. 41-50)
But what may be helpful to the discussion is that an understanding of Dependant Origination and the middle-way will lend to an understanding of momentariness through causal processes. The Kaccānagotta Sutta (SN. 12.15) comes to mind with its alalysis of simple right-view, where rather than attaching to the extremes of ‘everything exists’ (sabbaṃ atthī’ti) or ‘everything does not exist’ (sabbaṃ natthī’ti), one proceeds with an understanding of the ‘Dhamma of the middle’ (majjhena … dhammaṃ) viz. DO.

Also, an article that may be informative to this topic is The Buddhist Conception of Time and Temporality by David J. Kalupahana
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Re: Sutta supporting khanikavada (momentariness)

Post by mikenz66 » Sat Jun 09, 2012 8:54 pm

Thanks Ancient Buddhism,

It's strange that that particular sutta is not very easy to find on-line...

In fact, according to Sutta Central it should be here:
http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pit ... ali-e.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
but I don't see it... Hmmm...

:anjali:
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Re: Sutta supporting khanikavada (momentariness)

Post by Alex123 » Sat Jun 09, 2012 8:56 pm

Hello Mike,
mikenz66 wrote: Another sutta suggesting some rapidity and atomicity (one thing at a time).
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
But what's called 'mind,' 'intellect,' or 'consciousness' by day and by night arises as one thing and ceases as another. Just as a monkey, swinging through a forest wilderness, grabs a branch. Letting go of it, it grabs another branch. Letting go of that, it grabs another one. Letting go of that, it grabs another one. In the same way, what's called 'mind,' 'intellect,' or 'consciousness' by day and by night arises as one thing and ceases as another.
:anjali:
Mike
To say that mind by day and by night arises as one thing and ceases as another. is far far from talking about momentariness, as some take it to mean, that trillions of cittas rise and fall every second.

I do believe in a sort of momentariness. When we read every letter, then every split second there is different object of the mind - and thus the mind.
"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

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Re: Sutta supporting khanikavada (momentariness)

Post by mikenz66 » Sat Jun 09, 2012 9:13 pm

Alex123 wrote: To say that mind by day and by night arises as one thing and ceases as another. is far far from talking about momentariness, as some take it to mean, that trillions of cittas rise and fall every second.
Yes, but remember this thread is about sutta support.
Alex123 wrote: I do believe in a sort of momentariness. When we read every letter, then every split second there is different object of the mind - and thus the mind.
Yes, that's obvious by mundane observation. We don't need a sutta to tell us that...

Another aspect of momentariness (in Theravada at least) is that there is only consciousness of one object at at a time. Are there suttas that make that statement clearly.

:anjali:
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Re: Sutta supporting khanikavada (momentariness)

Post by vinasp » Sat Jun 09, 2012 11:35 pm

Hi everyone,

There seems to be different ways of counting and numbering these suttas at
the start of AN.

ATI has it as: AN 1.48, PTS: A i 10 - Lahu-parivatta Sutta - Quick to Reverse
Itself.

Link: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"I don't envision a single thing that is as quick to reverse itself as the mind — so much so that there is no feasible simile for how quick to reverse itself it is."

Regards, Vincent.

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Re: Sutta supporting khanikavada (momentariness)

Post by mikenz66 » Sun Jun 10, 2012 1:27 am

Thanks Vincent!

:anjali:
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Re: Sutta supporting khanikavada (momentariness)

Post by SamKR » Sun Jun 10, 2012 11:15 pm

Thanks danieLion, Mike, ancientbuddhism, Alex, and vinasp.
robertk wrote:
SamKR wrote:Thanks everyone for your replies and for the links.
Cooran's link to past discussion and the book (thesis) is very useful.

Thanks robertk for Guhatthaka-suttaniddeso which, as pointed out by tiltbillings in the past thread, is a commentary. But I think it is authoritative as it is a part of Nikaya. I hope there might be similar others that talk about impermanence close to momentariness, suttas preferably.
The idea that it is part of the Commentaries and not an actual sutta seems to have come from the translators innocent use of the word 'commentary' when describing Sariputta's exposition. If , in his preface, the modern translator had instead used the word "exposition' it would have been clearer.
So just to stress again, IT IS A SUTTA and not part of the Atthakatha (commentaries).
Thanks, robertk. Nice to know that.

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Re: Sutta supporting khanikavada (momentariness)

Post by danieLion » Sun Jun 10, 2012 11:30 pm

mikenz66 wrote:Hi Daniel,

I don't think that the issue of "being in the present moment" is the same as the issue of "momentariness".

:anjali:
Mike
I don't either. Did you even look at the topic?
metta

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Re: Sutta supporting khanikavada (momentariness)

Post by SamKR » Mon Jun 11, 2012 12:01 am

Can I add the following from Upacala Sutta:

Sabbo ādīpito loko, sabbo loko padīpito;
Sabbo pajjalito loko, sabbo loko pakampito.


Which is often quoted by SN Goenka to talk about rapid impermanence of sensations.
He translates the second line as "The entire world is burning, the entire world is vibrating"

Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation is: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .bodh.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Though this Sutta is not exactly about momentariness but it seems to be related because of the word pakampito.
Last edited by SamKR on Mon Jun 11, 2012 12:05 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Sutta supporting khanikavada (momentariness)

Post by Ben » Mon Jun 11, 2012 12:05 am

SamKR wrote:Can I add the following from Upacala Sutta:

Sabbo ādīpito loko, sabbo loko padīpito;
Sabbo pajjalito loko, sabbo loko pakampito.


Which is quoted by SN Goenka frequently to talk about rapid impermanence of sensations.
He translates the second line as "The entire world is burning, the entire world is vibrating"

Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation is: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .bodh.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Though this Sutta is not exactly about momentariness but it seems to be related because of the word pakampito.
Hi Sam,
I have seen that too, but it was, or something very similar, in the Therigatha.
kind regards,

Ben
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Re: Sutta supporting khanikavada (momentariness)

Post by SamKR » Mon Jun 11, 2012 12:22 am

Hello Ben,
Yes, the same stanza seems to appear in two places.

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Re: Sutta supporting khanikavada (momentariness)

Post by SamKR » Sat May 11, 2013 7:39 am

Other related words of the Buddha:

"Insofar as it disintegrates, monk, it is called the 'world.' Now what disintegrates? The eye disintegrates. Forms disintegrate. Consciousness at the eye disintegrates. Contact at the eye disintegrates. And whatever there is that arises in dependence on contact at the eye — experienced as pleasure, pain or neither-pleasure-nor-pain — that too disintegrates.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

This world is burning.
Afflicted by contact,
it calls disease a 'self.'
By whatever means it construes [anything],
it becomes otherwise than that
[1].

1. In other words, regardless of whatever one bases one's construal of an experience on, by the time the construal is complete, the base has already changed.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

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