should a practicing buddhist own a gun?

Buddhist ethical conduct including the Five Precepts (Pañcasikkhāpada), and Eightfold Ethical Conduct (Aṭṭhasīla).
Locked
User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23046
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: should a practicing buddhist own a gun?

Post by tiltbillings »

rowboat wrote:
I'm glad you "agree" with me.

:quote:
Less agreement and more acknowledgement of your statement.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
User avatar
retrofuturist
Posts: 27848
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: should a practicing buddhist own a gun?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Tilt, all,

Yes, that's the way it seems... and that feeds the "cetana" (intention) behind gun ownership, but of course, cetana is an individual thing rather than a collective thing, and it's something that both Buddhists and non-Buddhists have.

In that regard the "practicing buddhist" (as compared to others) would have the advantage of having more awareness of their mind-states (Right Mindfulness), and have the intention to progress towards wholesome mindstates (Right Effort)... not to mention the first precept.

It's not the Buddhist gun-owners I'd be worried about... it's those driven by fear, those driven by greed, those driven by anger, those driven by ignorance, those who do not value life, and those whose only deterrent against killing is the risk of getting caught.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
Truth_Seeker1989
Posts: 52
Joined: Sun Jun 03, 2012 9:08 am
Location: New York State, USA

Re: should a practicing buddhist own a gun?

Post by Truth_Seeker1989 »

There seems to be two sides here. One for pure pacifism, basically. And the other for responsible ownership of guns/weaponry for self defense, when all other options are exhausted.

Scenario A:

How would a Buddhist society survive without modern weaponry in a world full of non-Buddhists?

Do you honestly believe that to be possible without the help and involvement of the U.N.?

Scenario B:

The world is now majority Buddhist, but there are still dissidents out there who want nothing to do with it, and they stockpile guns, and use terrorism against the governments and Buddhist peoples. There is no other 'logical' option available but to shoot back, otherwise we are just cattle sent to the slaughter. How do we defend ourselves?


My answer...

A: A Buddhist society would be one of logic, science, and rationality. There would be continuous research into better weapons, but only for pure self defense of the nation and it's peoples. Without logic, with pacifism, we would be the laughing stock of the universe. Our goods would simply be taken by small packs of non-Buddhists with guns, carried away right in front of our eyes. Our women would be the pick of the crop as far as Earth goes, because we will not challenge even a small paramilitary organisation of sex traffickers, which would be bound to develop right at our borders, because we won't do a damn thing about it, we can't, riot tactics will not work against real guns and training.

B: A sociopaths heaven, because we won't take up arms to defend ourselves.


I see too much extreme here. The Buddha taught the Middle way. Doesn't the 'Middle Way' apply here as well? We can neither be too aggressive, nor too passive, but in-between.

Being too aggressive is against the teachings of the Buddha, and being too passive is illogical and makes us a coward. But the middle way, in between both of those, of pure self defense, using any and all means necessary before taking life, seems to be pretty damn rational, logical, and plain old COMMON SENSE.

I say to the one who is too aggressive: Practice mindfulness, and read the suttas about loving kindness and compassion. Try to understand those who you wish harm upon.

I say to the one who is too passive: Your a coward and/or unwise, with no real life experience of violent situations, and only looking for justification for your cowardice/lack of wisdom, by coming up with something that any reasonable person would say is irrational, because to not defend yourself is illogical. In today's society, and even in the futures, there will always be weaponry. To think otherwise is great, but that age will never exist for many years to come, if ever. Anyone who really takes a look at the world can see that. And do you honestly believe Humans to be the only life out in this massive Universe? We are one of the youngest Galaxies out there.


Responsible gun/weaponry ownership is the middle way. An active military even in a Buddhist country, created for pure self defense of the nation, is the middle way (Yeah, I know about bad politics, greed, ignorance, etc, but take it as it is for now, pure self defense of the country). Pacifism is an extreme, that should be avoided. Warmongering is the other extreme, that should be avoided.
Everything that makes you, you, is the result of your Environment (Society, Culture, Family, Friends, Etc), Genetics/Biology (Your brain which makes the mind possible, Inborn diseases such as Down Syndrome, or even Psociopathy, etc), Thoughts (Everything you think affects your mind, and the person you are), Speech (Same as thoughts, but words affect your environment as well), Actions (Same as Speech), and the Elements (Earth, Water, Fire, Wind, Space, and Time).
User avatar
Mr Man
Posts: 4016
Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2011 8:42 am

Re: should a practicing buddhist own a gun?

Post by Mr Man »

Hi Tilt
tiltbillings wrote: A gun being a piece of steel and a bit of wood or plastic, has no intention. Why guns came to be does not mean that is how any particular gun must be used.
Again later you say "The point is that gun has no purpose until it is picked up."

But there are others who think differently. For example Bodhisvasti says "A gun is for self defense". The idea that a gun is for self defense is exactly why you need tough gun control. That a 22 year old can own a gun specifically with the idea that it is needed for seld defense (not sport, not for his/her work, Not because it is a beautiful object or family heirloom) is scary.
Truth_Seeker1989
Posts: 52
Joined: Sun Jun 03, 2012 9:08 am
Location: New York State, USA

Re: should a practicing buddhist own a gun?

Post by Truth_Seeker1989 »

The idea of a twenty three year old owning a gun, after taking a class that teaches all other alternatives before it's actual use, a young man who would keep that gun for the pure self defense, when all other options are exhausted, of his family and friends, of his community, is a thing to be proud of!

However, the idea of a snivelling coward who hides when his friends and family are threatened with physical violence, makes me gag. That man should be arrested for not doing anything at all when it was clear he could, even with little risk to himself. That is a sad day, a sad man.
Everything that makes you, you, is the result of your Environment (Society, Culture, Family, Friends, Etc), Genetics/Biology (Your brain which makes the mind possible, Inborn diseases such as Down Syndrome, or even Psociopathy, etc), Thoughts (Everything you think affects your mind, and the person you are), Speech (Same as thoughts, but words affect your environment as well), Actions (Same as Speech), and the Elements (Earth, Water, Fire, Wind, Space, and Time).
User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23046
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: should a practicing buddhist own a gun?

Post by tiltbillings »

Mr Man wrote:Hi Tilt
tiltbillings wrote: A gun being a piece of steel and a bit of wood or plastic, has no intention. Why guns came to be does not mean that is how any particular gun must be used.
Again later you say "The point is that gun has no purpose until it is picked up."

But there are others who think differently. For example Bodhisvasti says "A gun is for self defense". The idea that a gun is for self defense is exactly why you need tough gun control. That a 22 year old can own a gun specifically with the idea that it is needed for seld defense (not sport, not for his/her work, Not because it is a beautiful object or family heirloom) is scary.
A lot of 22 year olds are scary, even without guns.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
User avatar
Doshin
Posts: 99
Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2012 8:01 am

Re: should a practicing buddhist own a gun?

Post by Doshin »

marc108 wrote:
jason c wrote: hi marc108,
in a life or death situation, you will simply take action, no thinking will be necessary. if however you have the time to go to your safe, unlock it, load your gun, you will have made a conscious choice to hurt or harm someone. why invite that into ones life?
.
i dont believe that is true, in the context of the type of people you find here. i would like to think all of this Bhavana we do would not go out the window in a violent situation and we would have the ability to choose to put a bullet in someones arm rather than their head.

again, there are no rules, per say, against harming. the 1st precept is about killing. ...
I do not agree. It depends on translation/lineage, I have often heard the 1st precept as "I will refrain from harming living beings".

'Right livelihood' in the eight-fold path is often explained as "avoiding any means of livelihood that involves harm or exploitation of others."
Knowing about dhamma, does not imply knowing dhamma
User avatar
Cittasanto
Posts: 6646
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:31 pm
Location: Ellan Vannin
Contact:

Re: should a practicing buddhist own a gun?

Post by Cittasanto »

tiltbillings wrote:
Cittasanto wrote:, because of the perceptions of others fear can still arise in them.
Then you do not stick guns in their faces.
You don't need to stick a gun in someones face for fear to arise for that person due to the weapon.
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23046
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: should a practicing buddhist own a gun?

Post by tiltbillings »

Cittasanto wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
Cittasanto wrote:, because of the perceptions of others fear can still arise in them.
Then you do not stick guns in their faces.
You don't need to stick a gun in someones face for fear to arise for that person due to the weapon.
What are you talking about here?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
User avatar
Ben
Posts: 18438
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 12:49 am
Location: kanamaluka

Re: should a practicing buddhist own a gun?

Post by Ben »

tiltbillings wrote:A lot of 22 year olds are scary, even without guns.
Indeed they are.

The following is from a news story today of the sentencing of Matthew Milat, who at age 17, murdered his 'friend' by way of axe.
Matthew Milat, the great-nephew of serial killer Ivan Milat has been sentenced to 43 years in jail with a 30-year non-parole period for the brutal murder of 17-year-old David Auchterlonie...

...Milat later bragged about his actions, telling friends that he was doing "what my family does", and attempted to glorify the murder in a series of poems he wrote in jail and later sent to his mother.

Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/milat-jailed- ... z1xBZuHQnk" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: [email protected]..
User avatar
Mr Man
Posts: 4016
Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2011 8:42 am

Re: should a practicing buddhist own a gun?

Post by Mr Man »

Bodhisvasti wrote:The idea of a twenty three year old owning a gun, after taking a class that teaches all other alternatives before it's actual use, a young man who would keep that gun for the pure self defense, when all other options are exhausted, of his family and friends, of his community, is a thing to be proud of!
No it isn't. Who taught you that? Will Kane?
User avatar
Cittasanto
Posts: 6646
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:31 pm
Location: Ellan Vannin
Contact:

Re: should a practicing buddhist own a gun?

Post by Cittasanto »

tiltbillings wrote:
Cittasanto wrote:You don't need to stick a gun in someones face for fear to arise for that person due to the weapon.
What are you talking about here?
the simple fact that hearing gun fire can be frightening for people, same way fireworks are frightening to animals when they go off, even if they can't see them.
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
Truth_Seeker1989
Posts: 52
Joined: Sun Jun 03, 2012 9:08 am
Location: New York State, USA

Re: should a practicing buddhist own a gun?

Post by Truth_Seeker1989 »

Mr Man wrote:
Bodhisvasti wrote:The idea of a twenty three year old owning a gun, after taking a class that teaches all other alternatives before it's actual use, a young man who would keep that gun for the pure self defense, when all other options are exhausted, of his family and friends, of his community, is a thing to be proud of!
No it isn't. Who taught you that? Will Kane?
A young man prepared to defend his family and community through the use of a gun, when every other option has been exhausted isn't something to be proud of? Right. Because cowardice is the new thing of today. Common sense taught me that. The stories of my ancestors taught me that. The acts of brave men taught me that. Defending the helpless is always a virtuous act. And IMO, should be required by law, unless it would bring obvious harm to the helper.
Everything that makes you, you, is the result of your Environment (Society, Culture, Family, Friends, Etc), Genetics/Biology (Your brain which makes the mind possible, Inborn diseases such as Down Syndrome, or even Psociopathy, etc), Thoughts (Everything you think affects your mind, and the person you are), Speech (Same as thoughts, but words affect your environment as well), Actions (Same as Speech), and the Elements (Earth, Water, Fire, Wind, Space, and Time).
User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23046
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: should a practicing buddhist own a gun?

Post by tiltbillings »

Cittasanto wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
Cittasanto wrote:You don't need to stick a gun in someones face for fear to arise for that person due to the weapon.
What are you talking about here?
the simple fact that hearing gun fire can be frightening for people, same way fireworks are frightening to animals when they go off, even if they can't see them.
And this has what to do with what? Some people are fearful of thunder. I have a friend who is terrified of frogs and the sounds they make. I shoud not own a gun because there are people out there who are fearful of the sound of a gun?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
User avatar
Doshin
Posts: 99
Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2012 8:01 am

Re: should a practicing buddhist own a gun?

Post by Doshin »

tiltbillings wrote:
-So imagine a real life situation: you're a doctor serving in a war, treating a patient inside a tent. You're far from the door. An enemy soldier comes inside with his gun down. Now split this scenario in 3.

1- you have a gun
2- you have a knife
3- you have a rock

In which of these scenarios does the enemy soldier get killed? Can you still equate having a gun to having a rock?
And if I don't have a gun, the enemy soldier kills me and everyone else in the tent. I'll go with Gandhi on this.
Soldiers are trained to instinctively kill every threat. So if he sees you reach for a gun, he would kill you before thinking (that's his training). If he sees doctors uniforms and you with your hands up, he is much less likely to kill you. I don't think you stand a chance against a professional soldier pointing a gun at you, if you are a doctor reaching for a gun.

Even if you get the chance to kill him, he probably just is one in a big group of enemy soldiers; and their next step would probably be to just throw some handgrenades into your tent.
Knowing about dhamma, does not imply knowing dhamma
Locked