Physical exercise and depression.

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daverupa
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Re: Physical exercise and depression.

Post by daverupa » Thu Jun 07, 2012 5:51 pm

marc108 wrote:this is just a single study... there is a huge bulk of evidence suggesting physical activity does effect mood positively. we should never ignore the bulk of evidence for a single study.
The difference lies in method; much early research studied the periods shortly before and shortly after exercise (e.g. here, here) but this recent study covers an eight-month period with 4-, 8-, and 12- month followup. The bulky short-term effects to which you refer do not appear to be conserved over time.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]

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cooran
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Re: Physical exercise and depression.

Post by cooran » Thu Jun 07, 2012 8:35 pm

This appears to be a very narrow study.

Many of the positive effects from exercise come with a ''whole package'' approach. You join a Gym - you aren't made to appear 'needy' or 'with a disability' - you attend and enjoy the company of others, either in the group exercise or on the individual machines - plus the background music and/or watching the t.v. as you use the machines.

You also walk in the sunshine with others. Much of the contact is exercise mixed with companionship - just the normal gym/walking experience of hundreds of thousand round the world.

with metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---

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daverupa
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Re: Physical exercise and depression.

Post by daverupa » Thu Jun 07, 2012 10:00 pm

cooran wrote:This appears to be a very narrow study.
Variable control is to be lauded; we can now remove exercise as a significant variable in favor of a focus on others: sunshine, company, mobility (qua motion, not exertion), etc. Such is the progress of a scientific understanding.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]

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retrofuturist
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Re: Physical exercise and depression.

Post by retrofuturist » Thu Jun 07, 2012 10:51 pm

Greetings,
daverupa wrote:Variable control is to be lauded; we can now remove exercise as a significant variable in favor of a focus on others: sunshine, company, mobility (qua motion, not exertion), etc. Such is the progress of a scientific understanding.
Yep. Isolating the variables and understanding the causality is key. Which is why I quoted MN 61 before - if someone experiences depression, why not do your own 'studies' and see what works for you? For the individual who has a personal concern, what is "statistically significant" in terms of correllation for the broader community, is little more than a tip-off about what might or might not be worth trying.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

danieLion
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Re: Physical exercise and depression.

Post by danieLion » Thu Jun 07, 2012 10:57 pm

alan wrote:Maybe that is why it is such a slog to read.
It's called scientificating and its caused by researchers who believe they're practicing science when in fact they're engaged in scientism. You can usually spot these types by their use of phrases like "statistically significant."

I'm going outside, in the sunshine, to get some fresh air and cardio (right after a homemade smoothie). Pretty sure I'll feel even better after that than I do now.

metta

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Alobha
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Re: Physical exercise and depression.

Post by Alobha » Thu Jun 07, 2012 11:30 pm

daverupa wrote:
Variable control is to be lauded; we can now remove exercise as a significant variable in favor of a focus on others: sunshine, company, mobility (qua motion, not exertion), etc. Such is the progress of a scientific understanding.
Instead of sweaty bodies, psychotherapy could go for clean minds with meditation ;)
There are studies that suggest that meditation may be as effective as medication in some cases, so that's a way that will hopefully get more public attention in the future. (although i'd be interested in finding out about some combined-treatment studies with medication+meditation vs. medication vs meditation vs placebo. Gotta do some research when i find the time :D )
danieLion wrote: It's called scientificating and its caused by researchers who believe they're practicing science when in fact they're engaged in scientism. You can usually spot these types by their use of phrases like "statistically significant."
You may not like it, but it is usually better to have empirical studies, data and statistical tests than just having a wild guess or trusting someone's guts as a basis for making decisions regarding large populations.

danieLion
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Re: Physical exercise and depression.

Post by danieLion » Fri Jun 08, 2012 1:35 am

Alobha wrote:
danieLion wrote: It's called scientificating and its caused by researchers who believe they're practicing science when in fact they're engaged in scientism. You can usually spot these types by their use of phrases like "statistically significant."
You may not like it, but it is usually better to have empirical studies, data and statistical tests than just having a wild guess or trusting someone's guts as a basis for making decisions regarding large populations.
Depends on what you mean by "empirical" and "data", and which statistical test you use, etc.... There are many more alternatives than the two you postulate.
metta

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ground
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Re: Physical exercise and depression.

Post by ground » Fri Jun 08, 2012 4:06 am

Sam Vega wrote:Some people might be interested in the findings of a scientific study which appears to prove that physical exercise has little or no effect upon depression.
However temporarily it may help due to appropriate central nervous transmitters being produced by the body. which is why some get addicted to physical exercise.

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Sam Vara
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Re: Physical exercise and depression.

Post by Sam Vara » Fri Jun 08, 2012 8:23 am

It might be helpful for people to read the study, and if possible to reflect a bit on how such studies work. There is nothing in the study which suggests that one should give up physical exercise if one finds it helpful, or take it up if one wants to try it out. It is acknowledged that there are short-term improvements of mood, probably attributable to endogenous opioids such as endorphins. It is acknowledged that there are numerous other benefits to physical health, such as protection of the cardio-vascular system. And exercise regimes which involve other people will probably benefit patients due to the social contact, etc. It makes no claims about the well-being which people who are not depressed can gain from exercise. People reading it would probably be aware that there will be exceptions to the statistical generalities which it deals in.

What the study does is to demonstrate that there are no significant long-term clinical benefits to patients arising from the exercise alone. It does this with a degree of scientific rigour which (we are told) is comparable to trials of chemical medication. As such, it refines our understanding of what works.

I therefore think this study is to be lauded on two accounts. First, it allows people to make more informed choices about what they want to do in order to help themselves. There is a danger that all findings and advice that are initially well-founded slip gradually into a form of "folk wisdom", in this case along the lines of "exercise cures depression". This and similar studies preserve the well-founded aspects, and eliminate some of the less helpful bits. Second, on-line discussions about the study have revealed a lot of frustration that chronically depressed patients feel with the idea that exercise is some type of panacea for their condition. Some have felt like failures because they cannot exercise, or think they cannot exercise to the intensity which will enable them to shed their problem. Some felt as if doctors had absorbed some of that "folk wisdom" and were recommending exercise because it was cheap and they had run out of other options.

I don't have any particular axe to grind over this issue, as I and my loved ones do not suffer from depression. Personally, I will continue to exercise because it makes me feel good, and hopefully it will keep the body staggering on a bit longer than otherwise. The study does not address people like me. But I find it interesting because - subject to the usual caveats attending all such research - it helps us understand the world a bit better and to clarify what helps.

JohnGold
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Re: Physical exercise and depression.

Post by JohnGold » Tue Oct 16, 2012 2:23 pm

I think physical exercise deduce tension, frustration and depression. :console:

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daverupa
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Re: Physical exercise and depression.

Post by daverupa » Tue Oct 16, 2012 2:53 pm

JohnGold wrote:I think physical exercise deduce tension, frustration and depression. :console:
Reduce, yes. Deduce, induce, no.

:heart:
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]

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retrofuturist
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Re: Physical exercise and depression.

Post by retrofuturist » Tue Oct 16, 2012 11:56 pm

Greetings,

Actually, I wouldn't be so quick to write-off induce.

Exercise sucks - it induces pain - pain is dukkha. :lol:

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

danieLion
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Re: Physical exercise and depression.

Post by danieLion » Thu Oct 18, 2012 10:42 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,

Actually, I wouldn't be so quick to write-off induce.

Exercise sucks - it induces pain - pain is dukkha. :lol:

Metta,
Retro. :)
But it induces even more sukkha.

Sumangalo
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Re: Physical exercise and depression.

Post by Sumangalo » Sat Oct 20, 2012 1:31 pm

Exercise that leaves me gasping for air is a sure way for me to reset my mood. It never fails to lift my depression and leave me in a state of peace.

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Annapurna
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Re: Physical exercise and depression.

Post by Annapurna » Sat Oct 20, 2012 7:02 pm

Mens sana in corpore sano.

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