Being nobody (Classical)

Exploring the Dhamma, as understood from the perspective of the ancient Pali commentaries.
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Alex123
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Re: Being nobody

Post by Alex123 »

Greetings Retro,
retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Coyote,
suttametta wrote:
Coyote wrote:Some teachers, especially those of the Thai Forest Traditions, emphasise an attitude that is characterised by "being nobody, going nowhere" over getting to this or that stage or attainment. While I recognise, with the teaching of Anatta and Anicca in mind, that this is ultimately true, I wonder how "traditional" or "classical" this method of teaching of practice is. My understanding is that it is somewhat of a peculiarity to Thai Forest Buddhism, and as a practice may have been influenced by similar attitudes in Mahayana schools such as Zen (not to say that it is not useful or authentic). So, from a Classical POV, is this a useful attitude to cultivate or not?

With metta,

Coyote
I don't think this is the way Buddha presented the practice.
Correct, nor is it the way it's presented Classically. As for whether it's a "useful attitude to cultivate or not" you're effectively asking it about the efficacy of a teaching from outside its domain, making it tough to answer. Your best bet may be to investigate what "bhava" (i.e. becoming, existence) means in the Theravada tradition and decide for yourself whether there is compatibility or otherwise.

Metta,
Retro. :)

Do you mean that Classical position is that "Be someone, get somewhere" ? Am I understanding you correct? Hopefully I am misinterpreting what you mean.

As long as there is Self View, Awakening cannot occur. Maggaphala should not be seen as some good self-attainment that is personally attained.
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retrofuturist
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Being nobody

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Alex,
Alex123 wrote:Do you mean that Classical position is that "Be someone, get somewhere" ? Am I understanding you correct?
No, I'm not saying that either. That's like saying that if I say something is not white then it has to be black.... dodgy logic on your part.

I'm just saying that "being nobody, going nowhere" is not how such matters are explained classically. As the OP discerned, that's more of a Zen-like means of explanation.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Alex123
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Re: Being nobody

Post by Alex123 »

Greetings Retro,
retrofuturist wrote:I'm just saying that "being nobody, going nowhere" is not how such matters are explained classically. As the OP discerned, that's more of a Zen-like means of explanation.
But isn't Anatta a Classical View? So being nobody = Anatta, and since there isn't atta, there is no atta to go anywhere.
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retrofuturist
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Re: Being nobody

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Alex,

Read the OP and see if you can find something useful to say in response to it.

At the moment you're just shadowboxing.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Ben
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Re: Being nobody

Post by Ben »

Greetings all

This is a reminder that posts that do not conform to the Classical Mahavihara Theravada forum guidelines are subject to moderator action.
thanks for your cooperation.

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

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mikenz66
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Re: Being nobody

Post by mikenz66 »

Non-Classically-Oriented posts have been redirected to here:
http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?t=12690&f=13" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

:anjali:
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Mr Man
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Re: Being nobody (Classical)

Post by Mr Man »

In my opinion the OP is a mis-representation of "Thai Forest Tradition". Where does the ""being nobody, going nowhere" phrase come from? Possibly there has been some ad-hoc teaching along those lines and possibly it is somthing that we in the west, like to pick up on but I would say that it really isn't given as a "doctrinal" teaching and isn't at the centre of emphasis in the "Thai Forest Tradition". I would say that the basis for this discussion is not solid.
:anjali:
PS Moderators hopefully my comment is acceptable for this thread. I did read the guidelines but thought my point is relevant to the starting point of the discussion.
daverupa
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Re: Being nobody (Classical)

Post by daverupa »

Mr Man wrote:Where does the ""being nobody, going nowhere" phrase come from?
Hmm... Ayya Khema wrote a book with that title. Otherwise, a potential source lies in this unsourced anecdote, for what it's worth:
A visiting Zen student asked Ajahn Chah, "How old are you? Do you live here all year round?" "I live nowhere," he replied. "There is no place you can find me. I have no age. To have age, you must exist, and to think you exist is already a problem. Don't make problems; then the world has none either. Don't make a self. There's nothing more to say."
Nothing Classical as yet; I wonder about the pedagogical difference between "be nobody, go nowhere" and "in the seen there is only the seen"...
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
Coyote
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Re: Being nobody (Classical)

Post by Coyote »

Hi Mr Man,
Mr Man wrote:In my opinion the OP is a mis-representation of "Thai Forest Tradition". Where does the ""being nobody, going nowhere" phrase come from? Possibly there has been some ad-hoc teaching along those lines and possibly it is somthing that we in the west, like to pick up on but I would say that it really isn't given as a "doctrinal" teaching and isn't at the centre of emphasis in the "Thai Forest Tradition". I would say that the basis for this discussion is not solid.
While it may not be a doctrinal teaching, it is a practical teaching that I have heard various western teachers in the Thai Forest Tradition use, especially Ajahn Sumedho and Ajahn Amaro, although there may be others.
Not sure if I should post this here, but Ajahn Sumedho talks about this idea in "The Sound of Silence", though I am not sure I could find the specific page or quote at the moment.
Also I have heard this from Ajahn Amaro, for example in the talk "Not being enlightened in the future" available here:
http://feeds.amaravati.org/AmaravatiTalks" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I believe he also draws from a Zen parable in that talk also.
daverupa wrote: Hmm... Ayya Khema wrote a book with that title. Otherwise, a potential source lies in this unsourced anecdote, for what it's worth:
Yes, this is where I first heard the phrase, although I have not read that particular book.

Perhaps it is more a difference of emphasis and language, or practical instruction, rather than a real difference in doctrine. It is just that the language used strikes me as being very specific to those of the Ajahn Chah lineage, and I wondered if it had any Classical basis.
"If beings knew, as I know, the results of giving & sharing, they would not eat without having given, nor would the stain of miserliness overcome their minds. Even if it were their last bite, their last mouthful, they would not eat without having shared."
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Viscid
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Re: Being nobody (Classical)

Post by Viscid »

If you haven't dug into Paññobhāsa's translation of the Atthakavagga, I recommend it.
http://pathpress.files.wordpress.com/20 ... vagga2.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The suttas in it seem to thematically parallel 'being nobody,'-- a directed emptying of egoic self-image.
SUDDHAṬṬHAKA SUTTA wrote:8. The holy man is gone beyond boundaries—by him there is nothing
He has known or seen that is seized upon.
He has no passion for passion, he is not impassioned for dispassion.
By him nothing outward has been taken up here.
DUṬṬHAṬṬHAKA SUTTA wrote:3. Whatever person, even unasked,
Speaks to others of his own morality and observances,
Whoever even of his own accord speaks of himself—
Adept ones say his is an ignoble way.

4. But a mendicant at peace, with self completely blown out,
Not boasting about his morality saying, “I am like this,”
For whom there are no distinguished positions at all in the world—
Adept ones say that his is a noble way.
"What holds attention determines action." - William James
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