Hi,
I meditate (ānāpānasati) almost daily for about 1 year now, since I visited the Muttodaya Forest Monastery in Germany. I think I'm quite sure how do deal with sakkāyaditthi (personality?) and sílabbataparāmāsa (clinging to rules and rites) but there are moments from time to time where I'm in doubt. I don't doubt the dhamma but rather whether I do things right or not. So I'm rather in doubt whether my practice leads in the "right" direction.
Does anyone have some advice, please? Should I comprise these doubts into contemplation? or suppress? or just further letting go?
and
How to handle doubts (vicikicchā)?
How to handle doubts (vicikicchā)?
Thag 1.20. Ajita - I do not fear death; nor do I long for life. I’ll lay down this body, aware and mindful.
- Fede
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Re: How to handle doubts (vicikicchā)?
From my humble point of view (and I have used this analogy before) I think it important to ascertain a Middle Way and be like the well-tuned guitar string... neither too tight (highly-strung, and over-exerted), nor too slack (laid back and non-committal)....
It is better to not be to self-critical, but evaluate progress and accept days when you will do really well, and days when you fall over, and need to pick up again...If you keep evaluating your own 'performance', there is also the problem that you may begin pandering to an undesirable 'Egoic' state...
It's OK.
Observe the Eightfold Path, and simply look at what you do in a non-judgemental way.
I wish you well.
It is better to not be to self-critical, but evaluate progress and accept days when you will do really well, and days when you fall over, and need to pick up again...If you keep evaluating your own 'performance', there is also the problem that you may begin pandering to an undesirable 'Egoic' state...
It's OK.
Observe the Eightfold Path, and simply look at what you do in a non-judgemental way.
I wish you well.
"Samsara: The human condition's heartbreaking inability to sustain contentment." Elizabeth Gilbert, 'Eat, Pray, Love'.
Simplify: 17 into 1 WILL go: Mindfulness!
Quieta movere magna merces videbatur. (Sallust, c.86-c.35 BC)
Translation: Just to stir things up seemed a good reward in itself.
I am sooooo happy - How on earth could I be otherwise?!
http://www.armchairadvice.co.uk/relationships/forum/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Simplify: 17 into 1 WILL go: Mindfulness!
Quieta movere magna merces videbatur. (Sallust, c.86-c.35 BC)
Translation: Just to stir things up seemed a good reward in itself.
I am sooooo happy - How on earth could I be otherwise?!
http://www.armchairadvice.co.uk/relationships/forum/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Re: How to handle doubts (vicikicchā)?
Hello acinteyya,acinteyya wrote:Hi,
I meditate (ānāpānasati) almost daily for about 1 year now, since I visited the Muttodaya Forest Monastery in Germany. I think I'm quite sure how do deal with sakkāyaditthi (personality?) and sílabbataparāmāsa (clinging to rules and rites) but there are moments from time to time where I'm in doubt. I don't doubt the dhamma but rather whether I do things right or not. So I'm rather in doubt whether my practice leads in the "right" direction.
Does anyone have some advice, please? Should I comprise these doubts into contemplation? or suppress? or just further letting go?
and
Maybe it will help to know the differences in types of doubt? If it is kankhā, there is no problem ...
kankhā
'doubt', may be either an intellectual, critical doubt or an ethically and psychologically detrimental doubt. The latter may either be a persistent negative skepticism or wavering indecision.
Only the detrimental doubt (identical with vicikicchā, q.v.) is to be rejected as karmically unwholesome, as it paralyses thinking and hinders the inner development of man. Reasoned, critical doubt in dubious matters is thereby not discouraged.
The 16 doubts enumerated in the Suttas (e.g. M. 2) are the following: "Have I been in the past? Or, have I not been in the past? What have I been in the past? How have I been in the past? From what state into what state did I change in the past? - Shall I be in the future? Or, shall I not be in the future? What shall I be in the future? How shall I be in the future? From what state into what state shall I change in the future? - Am I? Or, am I not? What am I? How am I? Whence has this being come? Whither will it go?"
http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/g_m/kankhaa.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---
Re: How to handle doubts (vicikicchā)?
Hi My personal opinion, and I guess it might be a bit idiosyncratic - I think doubt is the most awesome ally. Transmute "passive" doubt - subordination to doubtful feelings - into "active" enquiry - penetration of the object of investigation. Doubt is one of the most wonderful qualities to have as a human being imho.acinteyya wrote:Hi,
I meditate (ānāpānasati) almost daily for about 1 year now, since I visited the Muttodaya Forest Monastery in Germany. I think I'm quite sure how do deal with sakkāyaditthi (personality?) and sílabbataparāmāsa (clinging to rules and rites) but there are moments from time to time where I'm in doubt. I don't doubt the dhamma but rather whether I do things right or not. So I'm rather in doubt whether my practice leads in the "right" direction.
Does anyone have some advice, please? Should I comprise these doubts into contemplation? or suppress? or just further letting go?
and
Re: How to handle doubts (vicikicchā)?
Hello Fede,
In the way you already mentioned:
Did I understand you correctly?
best wishes
Do you mean if I evaluate my own 'performance', I should do it with wisdom to avoid a possibly undesirable 'Egoic' state?Fede wrote:If you keep evaluating your own 'performance', there is also the problem that you may begin pandering to an undesirable 'Egoic' state...
In the way you already mentioned:
...to be simply aware but not to jump to conclusions?Fede wrote: Observe the Eightfold Path, and simply look at what you do in a non-judgemental way.
Did I understand you correctly?
best wishes
Thag 1.20. Ajita - I do not fear death; nor do I long for life. I’ll lay down this body, aware and mindful.
Re: How to handle doubts (vicikicchā)?
It does! I'd rather say it's a form of kankhā instead of vicikicchā in that case.Chris wrote: Hello acinteyya,
Maybe it will help to know the differences in types of doubt? If it is kankhā, there is no problem ...
Thank you very much! That's really helpful.
best wishes
Thag 1.20. Ajita - I do not fear death; nor do I long for life. I’ll lay down this body, aware and mindful.
Re: How to handle doubts (vicikicchā)?
Hello MMK23,MMK23 wrote: Transmute "passive" doubt - subordination to doubtful feelings - into "active" enquiry - penetration of the object of investigation.
I'll give it a try
best wishes
Thag 1.20. Ajita - I do not fear death; nor do I long for life. I’ll lay down this body, aware and mindful.
Re: How to handle doubts (vicikicchā)?
It sounds like you are talking about sotapanna.acinteyya wrote:I think I'm quite sure how do deal with sakkāyaditthi (personality?) and sílabbataparāmāsa (clinging to rules and rites) but there are moments from time to time where I'm in doubt.
My understanding is not that one eradicates doubt in order to become sotapanna. Rather one's practice leads to a direct experience of Nibbana and thus one's doubts are eradicated since one sees directly how the practice leads to Nibbana. When this happens one is called sotapanna. That's my understanding, anyway.I don't doubt the dhamma but rather whether I do things right or not.
I think if one has questions about the practice one can ask a wise friend, a teacher. Or one can try to study the suttas directly.So I'm rather in doubt whether my practice leads in the "right" direction. Does anyone have some advice, please?
I think that until one attains sotapanna one should remember that doubt will inevitably arise from time to time. It's just a normal part of being a puthujjana. I think if there is no specific question but rather just doubt in those teachings then one should cultivate faith. Contemplate the Buddha or a wise teacher you know and let their admirable qualities inspire faith and counter doubt.Should I comprise these doubts into contemplation? or suppress? or just further letting go?
I hope this is helpful.
- Peter
Be heedful and you will accomplish your goal.
Be heedful and you will accomplish your goal.
Re: How to handle doubts (vicikicchā)?
The third one. Lots of things will come and go. (Tho it's probably worthwhile to ask your teacher.)acinteyya wrote:Should I comprise these doubts into contemplation? or suppress? or just further letting go?
Or you could write a limerick about it:
Vicikicchā
A gentleman named Laframboise
had a problem with vicikicchā.
Every time he would sit,
he'd think, "This can't be it."
And he'd go for a drink with Francois.
Rain soddens what is kept wrapped up,
But never soddens what is open;
Uncover, then, what is concealed,
Lest it be soddened by the rain.
But never soddens what is open;
Uncover, then, what is concealed,
Lest it be soddened by the rain.
Re: How to handle doubts (vicikicchā)?
more or less... doubts (vicikicchā) disable real practice which shall lead to direct experience of nibbana. So I thougth because I know how to deal with sakkāyaditthi and sílabbataparāmāsa but get into trouble when doubts arise, sotapanna can't be realized or rather experience of nibbana would not be possible until I developed a way to handle doubts.Peter wrote:It sounds like you are talking about sotapanna.acinteyya wrote:I think I'm quite sure how to deal with sakkāyaditthi (personality?) and sílabbataparāmāsa (clinging to rules and rites) but there are moments from time to time where I'm in doubt.
besides Chris told me about kankhā, the difference between kankhā and vicikichā and different kinds of vicikicchā. now I don't think my doubts are unwholesome vicikicchā, so I'm more relaxed about that now
That sounds right to me. I'm not sure if practicing with doubts and not letting go or eradicating one's doubts actually allows someone to experience nibbana. I mean in that case I would be trapped in a vicious circle. If doubts were not eradicated -> no experience of nibanna and no experience of nibanna -> no eradication of doubts, which probably leads to more doubts.Peter wrote:My understanding is not that one eradicates doubt in order to become sotapanna. Rather one's practice leads to a direct experience of Nibbana and thus one's doubts are eradicated since one sees directly how the practice leads to Nibbana. When this happens one is called sotapanna. That's my understanding, anyway.acinteyya wrote:I don't doubt the dhamma but rather whether I do things right or not.
But I don't really have a clue... I shouldn't suppose too much
Unfortunately I don't have a wise friend nor a teacher. The Suttas are helpful but it isn't that easy to "see the real dhamma" for puthujjanas (like me). I just assume that my understanding is right. But I have you and this forumPeter wrote:I think if one has questions about the practice one can ask a wise friend, a teacher. Or one can try to study the suttas directly.acinteyya wrote:So I'm rather in doubt whether my practice leads in the "right" direction. Does anyone have some advice, please?
It is. Thank you very much!Peter wrote:I think that until one attains sotapanna one should remember that doubt will inevitably arise from time to time. It's just a normal part of being a puthujjana. I think if there is no specific question but rather just doubt in those teachings then one should cultivate faith. Contemplate the Buddha or a wise teacher you know and let their admirable qualities inspire faith and counter doubt. I hope this is helpful.acinteyya wrote:Should I comprise these doubts into contemplation? or suppress? or just further letting go?
best wishes
Thag 1.20. Ajita - I do not fear death; nor do I long for life. I’ll lay down this body, aware and mindful.
Re: How to handle doubts (vicikicchā)?
Nice one I like it...Jechbi wrote:The third one. Lots of things will come and go. (Tho it's probably worthwhile to ask your teacher.)acinteyya wrote:Should I comprise these doubts into contemplation? or suppress? or just further letting go?
Or you could write a limerick
Vicikicchā
A gentleman named Laframboise
had a problem with vicikicchā.
Every time he would sit,
he'd think, "This can't be it."
And he'd go for a drink with Francois.
Ajahn Chah often said: "simply let go"
I think it's a good advice.
Thag 1.20. Ajita - I do not fear death; nor do I long for life. I’ll lay down this body, aware and mindful.
- Dhammanando
- Posts: 6512
- Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:44 pm
- Location: Mae Wang Huai Rin, Li District, Lamphun
Re: How to handle doubts (vicikicchā)?
Hi Chris,
However, these distinctions need to be determined contextually. They have nothing to do with which word for doubt the Buddha happens to use. In the Suttas the various words for doubt (kaṅkhā, vicikicchā, vimati, saṃsaya etc.), along with the verbs from which they derive, are all used synonymously and interchangeably.
Dhammanando Bhikkhu
It's true that there is an implicit distinction in the Suttas between (1) unwholesome doubt (e.g., scepticism regarding the qualities of the Triple Gem), (2) commendable doubt (e.g., when one doubts doubtworthy claims, as in the opening to the Kālāma Sutta), and (3) ethically indifferent doubt (e.g., wondering whether one should go left or right to get to Rājagaha).Chris wrote:Maybe it will help to know the differences in types of doubt? If it is kankhā, there is no problem ...
kankhā
'doubt', may be either an intellectual, critical doubt or an ethically and psychologically detrimental doubt. The latter may either be a persistent negative skepticism or wavering indecision.
Only the detrimental doubt (identical with vicikicchā, q.v.) is to be rejected as karmically unwholesome, as it paralyses thinking and hinders the inner development of man. Reasoned, critical doubt in dubious matters is thereby not discouraged.
However, these distinctions need to be determined contextually. They have nothing to do with which word for doubt the Buddha happens to use. In the Suttas the various words for doubt (kaṅkhā, vicikicchā, vimati, saṃsaya etc.), along with the verbs from which they derive, are all used synonymously and interchangeably.
- Here, a monk is doubtful (kaṅkhati) and vacillates (vicikicchati) regarding the Teacher; he is dissatisfied and cannot settle in his mind. Thus his mind is not inclined towards ardour, devotion, persistence and effort.
(DN. iii. 278)
It is fitting for you, Kālāmas, to be sceptical (kaṅkhituṃ); it is fitting for you to doubt (vicikicchituṃ). Doubt (vicikicchā) has arisen in you in a doubtworthy (kaṅkhanīya) matter.
(AN. i. 189)
Dhammanando Bhikkhu
Yena yena hi maññanti,
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.
In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
(Sn. 588)
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.
In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
(Sn. 588)
- Dhammanando
- Posts: 6512
- Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:44 pm
- Location: Mae Wang Huai Rin, Li District, Lamphun
Re: How to handle doubts (vicikicchā)?
One further remark:
What I wrote in my last post concerns Sutta usage. In the Abhidhamma, however, vicikicchā is never wholesome or neutral, but is always an unwholesome mental factor. The question sometimes arises as to how to reconcile the abhidhammic claim that vicikicchā is always bad with those sutta passages in which this seems not to be the case. One does so as follows:
1. When vicikicchā is being commended in the Suttas, it is to be understood as referring to the mental factor of understanding (paññā), with the Buddha using the word 'vicikicchā' merely to conform to common worldly usage.
2. Ethically indifferent doubt, such as wondering how to get to Rājagaha when one arrives at a crossroad, is referred to as a "counterfeit of a hindrance". Abhidhammically this is described not in terms of the presence of the mental factor of vicikicchā, but rather, in terms of the absence of the mental factor of decision (adhimokkha).
Best wishes,
Dhammanando Bhikkhu
What I wrote in my last post concerns Sutta usage. In the Abhidhamma, however, vicikicchā is never wholesome or neutral, but is always an unwholesome mental factor. The question sometimes arises as to how to reconcile the abhidhammic claim that vicikicchā is always bad with those sutta passages in which this seems not to be the case. One does so as follows:
1. When vicikicchā is being commended in the Suttas, it is to be understood as referring to the mental factor of understanding (paññā), with the Buddha using the word 'vicikicchā' merely to conform to common worldly usage.
2. Ethically indifferent doubt, such as wondering how to get to Rājagaha when one arrives at a crossroad, is referred to as a "counterfeit of a hindrance". Abhidhammically this is described not in terms of the presence of the mental factor of vicikicchā, but rather, in terms of the absence of the mental factor of decision (adhimokkha).
Best wishes,
Dhammanando Bhikkhu
Yena yena hi maññanti,
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.
In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
(Sn. 588)
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.
In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
(Sn. 588)
Re: How to handle doubts (vicikicchā)?
Hello Ajahn,
Thanks for your post. I was using Ven. Nyanatiloka's Buddhist Dictionary as a basis in the above definition of kankhā.
This is what he states about vicikicchā: ~ 'sceptical doubt', is one of the 5 mental hindrances (nīvarana) and one of the 3 fetters (samyojana), which disappear for ever at Stream-entry, the first stage of holiness (s. ariya-puggala).
As a fetter, it refers to sceptical doubt about the Master (the Buddha), the Teaching, the Sangha, and the training; about things past and future, and conditionality (Dhs.1004; cf. A.X.71).
It also applies to uncertainty whether things are wholesome or not, to be practiced or not, of high or low value, etc.
According to Vis.M. XIV, 177, vicikicchā is the lack of desire to think (things out i.e. to come to a conclusion; vigata-cikicchā, desiderative to Ö cit, to think); it has the nature of wavering, and its manifestation is indecision and a divided attitude; its proximate cause is unwise attention to matters of doubt.
It is associated with one of the 2 classes of unwholesome consciousness rooted in delusion (Tab. I, No. 32). - See also kankhā.
metta and respect,
Chris
Thanks for your post. I was using Ven. Nyanatiloka's Buddhist Dictionary as a basis in the above definition of kankhā.
This is what he states about vicikicchā: ~ 'sceptical doubt', is one of the 5 mental hindrances (nīvarana) and one of the 3 fetters (samyojana), which disappear for ever at Stream-entry, the first stage of holiness (s. ariya-puggala).
As a fetter, it refers to sceptical doubt about the Master (the Buddha), the Teaching, the Sangha, and the training; about things past and future, and conditionality (Dhs.1004; cf. A.X.71).
It also applies to uncertainty whether things are wholesome or not, to be practiced or not, of high or low value, etc.
According to Vis.M. XIV, 177, vicikicchā is the lack of desire to think (things out i.e. to come to a conclusion; vigata-cikicchā, desiderative to Ö cit, to think); it has the nature of wavering, and its manifestation is indecision and a divided attitude; its proximate cause is unwise attention to matters of doubt.
It is associated with one of the 2 classes of unwholesome consciousness rooted in delusion (Tab. I, No. 32). - See also kankhā.
metta and respect,
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---
Re: How to handle doubts (vicikicchā)?
Questions & Answers with Ajahn Chah
Q: What can I do about doubts? Some days I'm plagued with doubts about the practice or my own progress, or the teacher.
Answer: Doubting is natural. Everyone starts out with doubts. You can learn a great deal from them. What is important is that you don't identify with your doubts: that is, don't get caught up in them. This will spin your mind in endless circles. Instead, watch the whole process of doubting, of wondering. See who it is that doubts. See how doubts come and go. Then you will no longer be victimized by your doubts. You will step outside of them and your mind will be quiet. You can see how all things come and go. Just let go of what you are attached to. Let go of your doubts and simply watch. This is how to end doubting.
Q: What can I do about doubts? Some days I'm plagued with doubts about the practice or my own progress, or the teacher.
Answer: Doubting is natural. Everyone starts out with doubts. You can learn a great deal from them. What is important is that you don't identify with your doubts: that is, don't get caught up in them. This will spin your mind in endless circles. Instead, watch the whole process of doubting, of wondering. See who it is that doubts. See how doubts come and go. Then you will no longer be victimized by your doubts. You will step outside of them and your mind will be quiet. You can see how all things come and go. Just let go of what you are attached to. Let go of your doubts and simply watch. This is how to end doubting.
Liberation is the inevitable fruit of the path and is bound to blossom forth when there is steady and persistent practice. The only requirements for reaching the final goal are two: to start and to continue. If these requirements are met there is no doubt the goal will be attained. This is the Dhamma, the undeviating law.
- BB
- BB