Why Meditate?

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.
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retrofuturist
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Re: Why Meditate?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Mike,
mikenz66 wrote:The progress of insight sequence is seen as an interpretation and clarification of the above sequence, and other suttas.
Yes, Geoff explained the synthesis involved in the post immediately above yours and I am satisfied with his explanation.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
Nyana
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Re: Why Meditate?

Post by Nyana »

retrofuturist wrote:What confuses me a bit here is that the nyāṇas are typically called "knowledges". If someone has to redo them from the beginning each time, to what extent can it be claimed that they actually "know" and have "knowledge" of the various insights? Surely they haven't forgotten the previously acquired "knowledge"? Why the need to demonstrate to oneself what one already has "known" to be true?

The way they're explained here sounds more like they may be better called "perceptions" or "experiences", if they really must be re-experienced and cultivated in order to proceed further.
Yes, both saññā and ñāṇa are derived from the verb root - √ñā (to know). Cf. this post. The former term is more common in the suttas, e.g. aniccasaññā, anicca dukkhasaññā, dukkha anattasaññā, virāgasaññā, nirodhasaññā, paṭinissaggasaññā, etc.

IMO the Paṭisambhidāmagga Ñāṇakathā (which is the source for the insight-knowledges in the Vism.) was originally composed as a treatise explaining Theravāda doctrine and theory. Hence the use of the term "ñāṇa." It is more of a pedagogical treatise than a meditation manual. This was then later understood as a good working model for describing how to develop insight as a method, eventually giving rise to the Vism.
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retrofuturist
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Re: Why Meditate?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Geoff,

Thanks - that's much clearer now.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
Ron Crouch
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Re: Why Meditate?

Post by Ron Crouch »

Ñāṇa wrote:
Ron Crouch wrote:Nana, you seem to be suggesting that one has cognitions in Nibbana -are you really saying that this is how it happens?
Well, there is no such thing as "in nibbāna." One has a cognition of nibbāna, i.e. a cognition of extinguishment. And cognitions always arise with concomitant mental factors (cetasikā). The Abhidhammatthasaṅgaha:
  • 1. The First Jhāna Sotāpatti Path-consciousness together with initial application, sustained application, joy, happiness, and one-pointedness,
    2. The Second Jhāna Sotāpatti Path-consciousness together with sustained application, joy, happiness, and one-pointedness,
    3. The Third Jhāna Sotāpatti Path-consciousness together with joy, happiness, and one-pointedness,
    4. The Fourth Jhāna Sotāpatti Path-consciousness together with happiness and one-pointedness,
    5. The Fifth Jhāna Sotāpatti Path-consciousness together with equanimity and one-pointedness.

    These are the five types of Sotāpatti Path-consciousness.

    So are the Sakadāgāmī Path-consciousness, Anāgāmī Path-consciousness, and Arahatta Path-consciousness, making exactly twenty classes of consciousness. Similarly there are twenty classes of Fruit-consciousness. Thus there are forty types of supramundane consciousness.
This accords with the basic path sequence as outlined in the suttas as follows: dissatisfaction (dukkha) → faith (saddhā) → gladness (pāmojja) → joy (pīti) → tranquility (passaddhi) → pleasure (sukha) → meditative composure (samādhi) → gnosis & vision of things as they are (yathābhūtañāṇadassana) → disenchantment (nibbidā) → dispassion (virāga) → liberation (vimutti) → gnosis of elimination (khayeñāṇa).

This developmental path sequence is found in SN 12.23 (S ii 29) Upanisa Sutta. This same developmental sequence, or significant portions of it, is also presented in Vin i 294, D i 73, D i 182, D i 207, D i 214, D i 232, D i 250, D iii 241, D iii 279, D iii 288, M i 37, M i 283, S iv 78, S iv 351-8, S v 156, S v 398, A i 243, A iii 21, A iii 285, A v 1-6, A v 312, A v 315, A v 317, A v 329, A v 333.

Nana - you are wonderful! I love all the references.

We are totally on the same page now.

There was a question from retro about how the DN lines up with this. Retro, you and I have disagreed mostly, but my understanding is that the insight knowledges line up in the "gnosis & vision of things as they are (yathābhūtañāṇadassana) → disenchantment (nibbidā)". Equanimity and the events of path follow. Nana, please chime in if you don't see it this way.

Again, this is beautiful! Thanks so much Nana.
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Re: Why Meditate?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Ron,
Ron Crouch wrote:There was a question from retro about how the DN lines up with this. Retro, you and I have disagreed mostly, but my understanding is that the insight knowledges line up in the "gnosis & vision of things as they are (yathābhūtañāṇadassana) → disenchantment (nibbidā)". Equanimity and the events of path follow.
So the process of learning to cultivate disenchantment with regards to what one has seen (rather than respond with it with unwholesome reactions like aversion) is the "process" of the Dark Night? Is that what you're saying?

(And you might be surprised to know, I have agreed with you on many things you've said, it's just that I've not explicitly placed a tick next to everything we agree on. Where there is already concurrence there's not much to talk about, and on some of the matters where we agree, I've not taken it further out of respect for others who may not find the reasons behind my concurrence to be "pleasing to the ear".)

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
Ron Crouch
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Re: Why Meditate?

Post by Ron Crouch »

Ñāṇa wrote:
retrofuturist wrote:What confuses me a bit here is that the nyāṇas are typically called "knowledges". If someone has to redo them from the beginning each time, to what extent can it be claimed that they actually "know" and have "knowledge" of the various insights? Surely they haven't forgotten the previously acquired "knowledge"? Why the need to demonstrate to oneself what one already has "known" to be true?

The way they're explained here sounds more like they may be better called "perceptions" or "experiences", if they really must be re-experienced and cultivated in order to proceed further.
Yes, both saññā and ñāṇa are derived from the verb root - √ñā (to know). Cf. this post. The former term is more common in the suttas, e.g. aniccasaññā, anicca dukkhasaññā, dukkha anattasaññā, virāgasaññā, nirodhasaññā, paṭinissaggasaññā, etc.

IMO the Paṭisambhidāmagga Ñāṇakathā (which is the source for the insight-knowledges in the Vism.) was originally composed as a treatise explaining Theravāda doctrine and theory. Hence the use of the term "ñāṇa." It is more of a pedagogical treatise than a meditation manual. This was then later understood as a good working model for describing how to develop insight as a method, eventually giving rise to the Vism.

It is absolutely more experience than a cognitive process -although it greatly influences cognitions after it happens. One "experiences" impermanence and so on, then afterwards, it is easy to see the world in that way. You have an "insight knowledge", but is really felt and later becomes a way of viewing the world.

The higher paths, the repeats of the insight knowledges, in my opinion, are given short shrift in the VM and in a lot of the later commentaries. I could go into them in more detail here, but that is not really what the thread is about. Suffice it to say, they are more complex than the commentaries suggest.
Ron Crouch
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Re: Why Meditate?

Post by Ron Crouch »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Ron,
Ron Crouch wrote:There was a question from retro about how the DN lines up with this. Retro, you and I have disagreed mostly, but my understanding is that the insight knowledges line up in the "gnosis & vision of things as they are (yathābhūtañāṇadassana) → disenchantment (nibbidā)". Equanimity and the events of path follow.
So the process of learning to cultivate disenchantment with regards to what one has seen (rather than respond with it with unwholesome reactions like aversion) is the "process" of the Dark Night? Is that what you're saying?
Abso-freakin-lutely! The point is that the aversion does indeed come up, the terror, disgust, etc. but that you learn to cultivate dispassion toward it by letting go of the objects (difficult experiences) and experiencing liberation piece by piece, until the mind is ripe for full equanimity.
retrofuturist wrote: (And you might be surprised to know, I have agreed with you on many things you've said, it's just that I've not explicitly placed a tick next to everything we agree on. Where there is already concurrence there's not much to talk about, and on some of the matters where we agree, I've not taken it further out of respect for others who may not find the reasons behind my concurrence to be "pleasing to the ear".)

Metta,
Retro. :)
Very interesting! Mucho respect and metta retro. As I said before I go back and forth on you, but I see you are a subtle dude. That's cool.

Ron
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Prasadachitta
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Re: Why Meditate?

Post by Prasadachitta »

Ñāṇa wrote:
Yes, both saññā and ñāṇa are derived from the verb root - √ñā (to know). Cf. this post. The former term is more common in the suttas, e.g. aniccasaññā, anicca dukkhasaññā, dukkha anattasaññā, virāgasaññā, nirodhasaññā, paṭinissaggasaññā, etc.

IMO the Paṭisambhidāmagga Ñāṇakathā (which is the source for the insight-knowledges in the Vism.) was originally composed as a treatise explaining Theravāda doctrine and theory. Hence the use of the term "ñāṇa." It is more of a pedagogical treatise than a meditation manual. This was then later understood as a good working model for describing how to develop insight as a method, eventually giving rise to the Vism.
That really clears a lot up. I will probably still not study these texts much but what you have said here gives me a much better context for the material when I come across it.

Thanks Nana.

Prasadachitta
"Beautifully taught is the Lord's Dhamma, immediately apparent, timeless, of the nature of a personal invitation, progressive, to be attained by the wise, each for himself." Anguttara Nikaya V.332
danieLion
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Re: Why Meditate?

Post by danieLion »

Hi Ron,
You're welcome. I find it valuable too.
Ron Crouch wrote:...if you don't view the VM as a legit source of dhamma we are talking past each other...
The Buddha doesn't require us to have a view on the VM.

At this point I view it as neither legit nor non-legit. I just prioritize it differently, that is I defer to the suttas, some contemporary and semi-contemporary teachers, and my experience before the VM.
metta
danieLion
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Re: Why Meditate?

Post by danieLion »

Hi Ñāṇa,
Ñāṇa wrote:

This accords with the basic path sequence as outlined in the suttas as follows: dissatisfaction (dukkha) → faith (saddhā) → gladness (pāmojja) → joy (pīti) → tranquility (passaddhi) → pleasure (sukha) → meditative composure (samādhi) → gnosis & vision of things as they are (yathābhūtañāṇadassana) → disenchantment (nibbidā) → dispassion (virāga) → liberation (vimutti) → gnosis of elimination (khayeñāṇa).

This developmental path sequence is found in SN 12.23 (S ii 29) Upanisa Sutta. This same developmental sequence, or significant portions of it, is also presented in Vin i 294, D i 73, D i 182, D i 207, D i 214, D i 232, D i 250, D iii 241, D iii 279, D iii 288, M i 37, M i 283, S iv 78, S iv 351-8, S v 156, S v 398, A i 243, A iii 21, A iii 285, A v 1-6, A v 312, A v 315, A v 317, A v 329, A v 333.
Do you feel the gradual training (GT) is sequential in a strictly linear sense--e.g., you can't move on to saddhā without first having comprehended dukkha--or do you think it can progress more like a spiral--e.g., a little dukkha comprehending followed by a little saddhā, etc..., all the way through khayeñāṇa, then back to dukkha but with a little more comprehension of dukkha than the initial comprehending?

Also, and corollary to the above, do you believe you have to start with dukkha, or can you focus on another step and then work with the other aspects?
metta
danieLion
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Re: Why Meditate?

Post by danieLion »

Hi manas,
manas wrote:The floor might well be conditionally arisen, but it still needs sweeping!" :)
Where did the Buddha teach that things like floors are dependently orginated?
metta
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hanzze_
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Re: Why Meditate?

Post by hanzze_ »

danieLion,

as fare it is told: Consciousnesses is not the "I", mind is not the "I"... the floor has just its propose to go beyond. There is no such thing as a Buddha-Nature or something inherent which just need to be cleaned.
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