Other conditions today???

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Cittasanto
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Re: Other conditions today???

Post by Cittasanto » Sun May 27, 2012 3:03 pm

Hi hanzze
you are making statements not backed up with any demonstratable examples of how things are different, I have said it one and I will say it again here, you are focused on one question when there are now ten to answer, it is very circular, and quite frankly statements dont show anything other than your own opinion on the matter.
I read your responce and the links I have also listened to the original talks of some of those papers several times, and they do not answer the questions as far as I can tell, if it does please show where each of the questions are answered in that response! The questions are quite direct and put in a way where each can be answered individually.
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He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill

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hanzze_
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Re: Other conditions today???

Post by hanzze_ » Sun May 27, 2012 3:25 pm

Maybe I am to less precise but I do not understand your way of thinking and how to make it thinkable for you.

First you say:
and quite frankly statements dont show anything other than your own opinion on the matter
and than you state:
The questions are quite direct and put in a way where each can be answered individually.
I am not able to form a answer that fits to your ideas, i am not a mind-reader and if I would give you the answer in that way that you would need to think about it. Maybe you are able to reread your manifested thought before you give them to a simple minded person like me.

But how about you. What is your individual answer on the OP questions which is not just your opinion? Or did you mean separately but eternal?

What is time?

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Re: Other conditions today???

Post by Cittasanto » Sun May 27, 2012 8:54 pm

Hi Hanzee
these where qualified within the context of the line they were originally found in.
there has not been any demonstrable examples of difference from now & what would of been present in the time of the Buddha or before.

the questions are not relevant to me as there is a demonstrable effect of the teachings seen by myself and others which points to no differences not explainable from the teachings and confirmed by the practice (as already eluded to in reply to an earlier post to yours, which disqualified any levels or ability to understand as a qualified example as it shows different levels of ability to understand existed back then (look for Sahampati). to provide another example of this, there are gross & subtle manifestations of the root causes of greed, hatred & delusion, seen within the texts, so observed within the time of the Buddha, this is also seen by practitioners today, this is why for me there is no difference (as already explained). so as you are arguing for there being 1. different causes (of which you have admitted there are none) & 2. today is worse for practice due to some difference, as these would effect practice and the light the teachings should be viewed in, it is worth hearing what the problem is.
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill

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Re: Other conditions today???

Post by befriend » Sun May 27, 2012 8:55 pm

im not sure what the mode of dress for women in india/nepal was but living in the US and watching television for 10 minutes and you are bombarded with breasts. and what is the cause of lust to arise? focusing on beauty. granted its my own will to look at the breasts but it make it a lot easier for me to practice renunciation if women covered up more. not that im at a point in my life where i want women to cover up, im not that spiritual. ha. im just making a statement that practicing now may be harder than practicing then what with all the lustful ads.
Take care of mindfulness and mindfulness will take care of you.

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Re: Other conditions today???

Post by jason c » Sun May 27, 2012 8:57 pm

dear cittasanto,
once someone has found the path the buddha has described, and developed the technique of practice the buddha has described. they become their own teacher their own master, and can progress on the path at a pace that suits them. i see the world we live in today, with the financial difficulties, the mistreatment of animals,and the amount of drugs humans are taking just to deal with the pain. i also see the confusion and fighting that is caused by organised religions (buddhism included), and i think why is it so difficult for people to find the truth? and then i look at myself and i see the confusion, the hurdles, the difficulties, the chances, and the pain i endured to find this path. it is not as visible as one may think. if it was there would be one teaching, one practice, not all these different sects. the teachings of the buddha are as relevant today as they were 2500yrs ago. so why aren't there more people practicing why is the world in such a chaotic state. buddhism doesnt have to evolve, people still find it, but isn't it a crime for it not to evolve, not to reach its arms out and all those who are suffering. what is the harm in updating old stories to reach a new generation? its selfish of us not to!
metta,
jason

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Re: Other conditions today???

Post by Cittasanto » Sun May 27, 2012 9:00 pm

befriend wrote:im not sure what the mode of dress for women in india/nepal was but living in the US and watching television for 10 minutes and you are bombarded with breasts. and what is the cause of lust to arise? focusing on beauty. granted its my own will to look at the breasts but it make it a lot easier for me to practice renunciation if women covered up more. not that im at a point in my life where i want women to cover up, im not that spiritual. ha. im just making a statement that practicing now may be harder than practicing then what with all the lustful ads.
You know there are examples of it being even worse then!
bear(sp?) chested women are found in the canon. and if you are in a situation where there is a lack of sensual stimuli small details (ancles or the smallest amount of curve, or body exposure) can become overwhelming, and just as exciting.
Last edited by Cittasanto on Sun May 27, 2012 9:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill

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Re: Other conditions today???

Post by Cittasanto » Sun May 27, 2012 9:07 pm

jason c wrote:dear cittasanto,
once someone has found the path the buddha has described, and developed the technique of practice the buddha has described. they become their own teacher their own master, and can progress on the path at a pace that suits them. i see the world we live in today, with the financial difficulties, the mistreatment of animals,and the amount of drugs humans are taking just to deal with the pain. i also see the confusion and fighting that is caused by organised religions (buddhism included), and i think why is it so difficult for people to find the truth? and then i look at myself and i see the confusion, the hurdles, the difficulties, the chances, and the pain i endured to find this path. it is not as visible as one may think. if it was there would be one teaching, one practice, not all these different sects. the teachings of the buddha are as relevant today as they were 2500yrs ago. so why aren't there more people practicing why is the world in such a chaotic state. buddhism doesnt have to evolve, people still find it, but isn't it a crime for it not to evolve, not to reach its arms out and all those who are suffering. what is the harm in updating old stories to reach a new generation? its selfish of us not to!
metta,
jason
There is updating, and then changing.
if something can be adapted to work in different situations, great, but if it works perfectly well & isn't broken don't fix it.
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill

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Re: Other conditions today???

Post by Alex123 » Sun May 27, 2012 9:46 pm

Greetings Retro,
retrofuturist wrote:There is still eye and forms. There is still ear and sounds. There is still body and touch. There is still tongue and taste. There is still nose and smell. There is still mind and thought.
There was alive Buddha Gotama who could point out the mistakes of people. Today we do not have the Buddha who can say "this interpretation is correct. This interpretation is not correct. You need this method, another person needs another method." There is no guarantee that a certain method is right one, especially for someone personally. In VsM there are about 40 objects of meditation. Which one do fits someone the best? How can one know? To try all out might take more than one life, especially if one doesn't have much of it left. Just because one likes some method, it doesn't mean that it is most effective for one.

There are also different kinds of vipassana (Goenka, Mahasi, Ajahn Naeb, Ajahn Chan, etc). Which one is most appropriate?
"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

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Re: Other conditions today???

Post by retrofuturist » Sun May 27, 2012 10:45 pm

Greetings Alex,

Sorry, I do not see the connection between what you have written, nor Cittasanto's question that I responded to.

You're saying that the "other condition today" is the absence of a Sammasambuddha "who could point out the mistakes of people". Fair enough, I suppose... it's one of the better reasons I've heard, though it doesn't change the actual challenge at hand - it only changes the quality of personal instruction available.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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Re: Other conditions today???

Post by Alex123 » Sun May 27, 2012 11:40 pm

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Alex,

Sorry, I do not see the connection between what you have written, nor Cittasanto's question that I responded to.

You're saying that the "other condition today" is the absence of a Sammasambuddha "who could point out the mistakes of people". Fair enough, I suppose... it's one of the better reasons I've heard, though it doesn't change the actual challenge at hand - it only changes the quality of personal instruction available.

Metta,
Retro. :)
bold is mine. That can make almost all the difference. If a person gets incorrect instruction (which may or may not have worked for someone else), then no major progress can be made.
"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

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Re: Other conditions today???

Post by hanzze_ » Mon May 28, 2012 2:50 am

Cittasanto wrote:Hi Hanzee
these where qualified within the context of the line they were originally found in.
there has not been any demonstrable examples of difference from now & what would of been present in the time of the Buddha or before.

the questions are not relevant to me as there is a demonstrable effect of the teachings seen by myself and others which points to no differences not explainable from the teachings and confirmed by the practice (as already eluded to in reply to an earlier post to yours, which disqualified any levels or ability to understand as a qualified example as it shows different levels of ability to understand existed back then (look for Sahampati). to provide another example of this, there are gross & subtle manifestations of the root causes of greed, hatred & delusion, seen within the texts, so observed within the time of the Buddha, this is also seen by practitioners today, this is why for me there is no difference (as already explained). so as you are arguing for there being 1. different causes (of which you have admitted there are none) & 2. today is worse for practice due to some difference, as these would effect practice and the light the teachings should be viewed in, it is worth hearing what the problem is.
Dear Cittasanto,
maybe you have not seen that I divided conditions in two part. One are conditions as they are timeless for every being every time (at least the first three noble truth) and second are the conditions for every being to escape (the four noble truth) with is not timeless and depends on the mass of defilement (merits).
The first is timeless, the second is a question of effort (intention and it's tendency). Every being would be possible to come trough the gate, but its not a condition possible independently form right intentions over a long time. General tendencies have influence as well as they are caused by individuals. Think on admirable friends. If there are less holy people in the world, it's natural that there will be less who are friends of them or associate with them. If you like to change it (and its good not to practice just for one self), show that even the conditions of time and right intentions are not a matter of time. Can you do that? What is the problem with it?

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hanzze_
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Re: Other conditions today???

Post by hanzze_ » Mon May 28, 2012 2:59 am

jason c wrote:dear cittasanto,
once someone has found the path the buddha has described, and developed the technique of practice the buddha has described. they become their own teacher their own master, and can progress on the path at a pace that suits them. i see the world we live in today, with the financial difficulties, the mistreatment of animals,and the amount of drugs humans are taking just to deal with the pain. i also see the confusion and fighting that is caused by organised religions (buddhism included), and i think why is it so difficult for people to find the truth? and then i look at myself and i see the confusion, the hurdles, the difficulties, the chances, and the pain i endured to find this path. it is not as visible as one may think. if it was there would be one teaching, one practice, not all these different sects. the teachings of the buddha are as relevant today as they were 2500yrs ago. so why aren't there more people practicing why is the world in such a chaotic state. buddhism doesnt have to evolve, people still find it, but isn't it a crime for it not to evolve, not to reach its arms out and all those who are suffering. what is the harm in updating old stories to reach a new generation? its selfish of us not to!
metta,
jason
Pull our your own share, what is the problem to walk the eightfold path. Do you like to change the the truth of suffering, the origin of suffering and its cessation? Dependent conditions can be just uprooted by depending uprooting and as the cause is the wrong self-believe its a matter of doing it by your self. The faster you do that the more you also chance the conditions for others in the world. As long one seeks for security in compound phenomena, suffering is present. Today people tend fanatical to seek refuge in it, no need to follow. The unbinding is always present. Better your conditions to it.

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Re: Other conditions today???

Post by hanzze_ » Mon May 28, 2012 3:09 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Alex,

Sorry, I do not see the connection between what you have written, nor Cittasanto's question that I responded to.

You're saying that the "other condition today" is the absence of a Sammasambuddha "who could point out the mistakes of people". Fair enough, I suppose... it's one of the better reasons I've heard, though it doesn't change the actual challenge at hand - it only changes the quality of personal instruction available.

Metta,
Retro. :)
Dear Retro,
It would be not available even a Sammasambuddha would be present, if your conditions to see him as this are not timely. There are times when a sammasambuddha appears and there are times, there are no condition for it. Individual the quality of teachings are also up to oneself.

There are suttas when and what conditions are needed for the appearance of a Buddha and there are also suttas, which conditions are needed that Dhamma flourishes and there are conditions quoted when one individual is able to walk the path to it's aim.
All conditions are always related to the personality, to the quality of presence of the discernment regarding the "self". With its perfection conditions related to a being disappear.

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Re: Other conditions today???

Post by retrofuturist » Mon May 28, 2012 3:29 am

Greetings hanzze,

Assuming I'm reading you correctly...

I agree that one needs wisdom &/or criteria to be able to discern a good teacher, and differentiate from those who are most excellent, those who are middling, and those who are inferior. Different wisdom and criteria will lead to different assessments, and there may be a degree of "different strokes, for different folks" too.
the quality of presence of the discernment regarding the "self". With its perfection conditions related to a being disappear.
And here we appear to be going full circle back to where our discussion started... though you'll have to excuse me if I've misinterpreted what you're trying to communicate.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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hanzze_
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Re: Other conditions today???

Post by hanzze_ » Mon May 28, 2012 3:34 am

I am sure that this circle goes on, it's a matter of conditions. So is the gain of wisdom a matter of time or something that can come out of nothing?

Our intentions have actually very much power if we can see the crap between past and presents. Never forget, the world is what your are making out of it all the time. It's just your world and the conditions you might bring. Or is there an outside world?
Last edited by hanzze_ on Mon May 28, 2012 3:37 am, edited 1 time in total.

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