Claims of Enlightenment...

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Cittasanto
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Re: Claims of Enlightenment...

Post by Cittasanto » Thu May 10, 2012 8:51 pm

jackson wrote:Greetings Volcommerce,
I believe Cittasanto is referring to the Ayacana Sutta, which can be found here: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
Best wishes,
Jackson
Thank-you Jackson, although I was thinking of the Vinaya version, which is the same for purposes.
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He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill

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SDC
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Re: Claims of Enlightenment...

Post by SDC » Thu May 10, 2012 9:39 pm

Cittasanto wrote:"what are they trying to prove, or get?"
Attention.

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Cittasanto
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Re: Claims of Enlightenment...

Post by Cittasanto » Thu May 10, 2012 9:41 pm

Would everyone agree to this as a general cover all of what these claims looks like?

New members making claims of attainments to complete strangers on a forum looks like trolling, or something else for the poster let go of, at best, and possibly may also look like “grandiose beliefs” which are characteristic of a psychological disorder, at worst.
Any claims, here on this forum, are gauged by the Buddhas Teachings, and not from elsewhere, and just because the correct words from Theravada or Buddhism in General are being used does not mean they are being used in the same way as found in the teachings the Buddha gave. An example of this is Dhammaoverground.
There is nothing to get by making claims, so good questions to ask is “why advertise a good thing?” and, “is this the right time and place?”
Advertisements for products which cost money and benefit the poster are against the terms of service and makes any claim dubious.
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill

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Alobha
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Re: Claims of Enlightenment...

Post by Alobha » Thu May 10, 2012 9:42 pm

SDC wrote:
Cittasanto wrote:"what are they trying to prove, or get?"
Attention.
:goodpost:

Also:
Dhp Chapter 5 wrote: "Let both laymen and monks think that it was done by me. In every work, great and small, let them follow me" — such is the ambition of the fool; thus his desire and pride increase.

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SDC
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Re: Claims of Enlightenment...

Post by SDC » Thu May 10, 2012 9:49 pm

A good quote from Venerable Ñanavira:
Only if you are not quite convinced yourself will you be anxious to convince others: you are seeking confirmation. Those who know don't speak.

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Re: Claims of Enlightenment...

Post by Cittasanto » Thu May 10, 2012 10:15 pm

SDC wrote:A good quote from Venerable Ñanavira:
Only if you are not quite convinced yourself will you be anxious to convince others: you are seeking confirmation. Those who know don't speak.
In more ways than one!
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He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill

dhamma_newb
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Re: Claims of Enlightenment...

Post by dhamma_newb » Fri May 11, 2012 12:10 am

Cittasanto wrote:Would everyone agree to this as a general cover all of what these claims looks like?

New members making claims of attainments to complete strangers on a forum looks like trolling, or something else for the poster let go of, at best, and possibly may also look like “grandiose beliefs” which are characteristic of a psychological disorder, at worst.
Any claims, here on this forum, are gauged by the Buddhas Teachings, and not from elsewhere, and just because the correct words from Theravada or Buddhism in General are being used does not mean they are being used in the same way as found in the teachings the Buddha gave. An example of this is Dhammaoverground.
There is nothing to get by making claims, so good questions to ask is “why advertise a good thing?” and, “is this the right time and place?”
Advertisements for products which cost money and benefit the poster are against the terms of service and makes any claim dubious.
Sounds good Cittasanto!
The watched mind brings happiness.
Dhp 36

I am larger and better than I thought. I did not know I held so much goodness.
Walt Whitman

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Modus.Ponens
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Re: Claims of Enlightenment...

Post by Modus.Ponens » Fri May 11, 2012 12:27 am

I think there are valid reasons for being cautious with claiming an attainment, but apart from that it's all taboo inherited from tradition. There are also good reasons for claiming an attainment such as geting people to listen teachings and, very important too, to inspire people to train their minds hard, knowing it's possible to attain such states. I know I've been inspired from others telling they can achieve jhana.

The Buddha didn't prohibited lay people to claim anything so why do we, lay people, have to behave like monks?
"He turns his mind away from those phenomena and, having done so, inclines his mind to the property of deathlessness: 'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.' " - Jhana Sutta

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Re: Claims of Enlightenment...

Post by Volcommerce » Fri May 11, 2012 12:48 am

Hi friends, to get the bottom of this matter, and to avoid speculation;

Modus,

Can you refer us to where Buddha did not prohibit people from making claims to enlightenment?

Similarly, to the other posters, can you please provide support of your opinions and claims in reference to Buddhist doctrine?

Also, there is a big difference between a poster selling a product and proving wisdom of enlightenment -
these two are not related and it would appear some posters are contributing information that is contradictory to common sense and truth, which is in contravention of right action and right speech.

Please clarify.

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SDC
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Re: Claims of Enlightenment...

Post by SDC » Fri May 11, 2012 1:18 am

Volcommerce, how long have you been official studying the dhamma? I recall you said only a few days is that correct? Or am I misremebering?

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Re: Claims of Enlightenment...

Post by Volcommerce » Fri May 11, 2012 2:12 am

Sigh,

The dhamma is the what Buddha realized through direct experience and spoke about his condition. He did not ''study'' the dhamma prior to his enlightenment. You must emphasize the nature of his intention, action and human condition if seek to express an understanding of Buddhism. Standing behind an explanation does not and will not lend you credibility.

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Goofaholix
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Re: Claims of Enlightenment...

Post by Goofaholix » Fri May 11, 2012 2:22 am

Volcommerce wrote:Standing behind an explanation does not and will not lend you credibility.
What do you think would lend you credibility?

What lends credibility to someone claiming to be a doctor?

What lends credibility to someone claiming to be a lawyer?
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.” ― Ajahn Chah

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SDC
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Re: Claims of Enlightenment...

Post by SDC » Fri May 11, 2012 2:37 am

Volcommerce wrote:Sigh,

The dhamma is the what Buddha realized through direct experience and spoke about his condition. He did not ''study'' the dhamma prior to his enlightenment. You must emphasize the nature of his intention, action and human condition if seek to express an understanding of Buddhism. Standing behind an explanation does not and will not lend you credibility.
My point, which I should have just come right out with, is that you seem fairly well versed. Quite a bit more than 2 days worth.

EDIT - Well versed, and confident with a specific perspective of the dhamma, which I would be shocked if you threw together over a few days.

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Cittasanto
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Re: Claims of Enlightenment...

Post by Cittasanto » Fri May 11, 2012 6:09 am

the prohabition is within the patimokkha, parajika & pacittia rules, as already mentioned earlier in the thread.
these rules are for monastics, however the Parajika is also covered by the fourth lay precept and the pacittia is covered within right speech.

The Dhamma is not always common sense, all phenomena are not self, is hardly common sense, just as all phenomena is stressful, is equally not common sense, and please directly support why any part is inappropriate, instead of making general statements they are not, as the line you are mentioning has been seen by members and mentioned it is a valid aspect to include.
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He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill

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Cittasanto
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Re: Claims of Enlightenment...

Post by Cittasanto » Fri May 11, 2012 6:24 am

Modus.Ponens wrote:I think there are valid reasons for being cautious with claiming an attainment, but apart from that it's all taboo inherited from tradition. There are also good reasons for claiming an attainment such as geting people to listen teachings and, very important too, to inspire people to train their minds hard, knowing it's possible to attain such states. I know I've been inspired from others telling they can achieve jhana.

The Buddha didn't prohibited lay people to claim anything so why do we, lay people, have to behave like monks?
Yes there are valid reasons for allot of things.
the reason lay people look down upon it is, in my opinion and especially online, is because like the pressent claims they are by complete strangers, i.e. they are innapropriatly done, and not at the right time.

The Buddha didn't prohibit allot of things for lay people, however, could it be said making claims of attainments to strangers is inline with what the Buddha taught?

But as a general note can we stay on topic here now please!
There is another thread to discuss one of the current claimers claims.
:focus:
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He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill

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