Five aggregates of appropriation (upādānakkhandha)

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retrofuturist
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Re: Five aggregates of appropriation (upādānakkhandha)

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
Ñāṇananda has quite a dif­fer­ent view from the stan­dard Ther­avadin inter­pre­ta­tion which is closer to naïve real­ism. It is also opposed to Ven. Ñāṇavīra Thera’s expla­na­tions, and read­ers who are famil­iar with Clear­ing the Path would notice that Bhante Ñāṇananda’s inter­pre­ta­tion is close to Sis­ter Vajira’s ear­lier views. It is easy to see why Bhante is some­times accused of being a viññāṇavādin by those who are less will­ing to con­sider the sub­tleties involved.
“So where does pañcupādā­nakkhandha come in? Pañcupādā­nakkhandhā is the final result of the con­stant tus­sle between viññāṇa and nāma-rūpa. This is made clear in the Mahāsaḷāyatanika Sutta. What is gath­ered from the six viññāṇa–s, at the end, are fil­tered down to things grasped as “these are my forms, these are my feel­ings, these are my perceptions, …

“You might remem­ber how the Bud­dha explained the des­ig­na­tion of a khandha, in the Mahāpuṇṇama Sutta: atītānā­gat­a­pac­cup­pannaṃ ajjhattaṃ vā bahid­dhā vā oḷārikaṃ vā sukhumaṃ vā hīnaṃ vā paṇītaṃ vā yaṃ dūre san­tike vā (past, future, present, inter­nal or exter­nal, gross or sub­tle, infe­rior or supe­rior, far or near). That’s the demar­ca­tion of the heap.”
Source: http://nidahas.com/2010/09/nanananda-heretic-sage-3/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Five aggregates of appropriation (upādānakkhandha)

Post by tiltbillings »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,
Ñāṇananda has quite a dif­fer­ent view from the stan­dard Ther­avadin inter­pre­ta­tion which is closer to naïve real­ism. It is also opposed to Ven. Ñāṇavīra Thera’s expla­na­tions, and read­ers who are famil­iar with Clear­ing the Path would notice that Bhante Ñāṇananda’s inter­pre­ta­tion is close to Sis­ter Vajira’s ear­lier views. It is easy to see why Bhante is some­times accused of being a viññāṇavādin by those who are less will­ing to con­sider the sub­tleties involved.
“So where does pañcupādā­nakkhandha come in? Pañcupādā­nakkhandhā is the final result of the con­stant tus­sle between viññāṇa and nāma-rūpa. This is made clear in the Mahāsaḷāyatanika Sutta. What is gath­ered from the six viññāṇa–s, at the end, are fil­tered down to things grasped as “these are my forms, these are my feel­ings, these are my perceptions, …

“You might remem­ber how the Bud­dha explained the des­ig­na­tion of a khandha, in the Mahāpuṇṇama Sutta: atītānā­gat­a­pac­cup­pannaṃ ajjhattaṃ vā bahid­dhā vā oḷārikaṃ vā sukhumaṃ vā hīnaṃ vā paṇītaṃ vā yaṃ dūre san­tike vā (past, future, present, inter­nal or exter­nal, gross or sub­tle, infe­rior or supe­rior, far or near). That’s the demar­ca­tion of the heap.”
Source: http://nidahas.com/2010/09/nanananda-heretic-sage-3/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Metta,
Retro. :)
Okay, but I still see here no justification for reading upādā­nakkhandhā in the past tense as "appropriated khandhas." My preference is to see the language of the suttas a bit more dynamically. Upādā­na, fuel, was used very deliberately by the Buddha to make a point about the khandhas. My guess is that our opinions are going to be at variance.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: Five aggregates of appropriation (upādānakkhandha)

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
tiltbillings wrote:Upādā­na, fuel, was used very deliberately by the Buddha to make a point about the khandhas.
Yes, once we stop appropriating, and let go of what was appropriated, the fire goes out.

SN 12.52: Updana Sutta
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Dwelling at Savatthi. There the Blessed One said to the monks: "In one who keeps focusing on the allure of clingable phenomena (or: phenomena that offer sustenance = the five aggregates), craving develops. From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging/sustenance. From clinging/sustenance as a requisite condition comes becoming. From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth. From birth as a requisite condition, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair come into play. Such is the origin of this entire mass of suffering & stress.

"Just as if a great mass of fire of ten... twenty... thirty or forty cartloads of timber were burning, and into it a man would time & again throw dried grass, dried cow dung, & dried timber, so that the great mass of fire — thus nourished, thus sustained — would burn for a long, long time. In the same way, in one who keeps focusing on the allure of clingable phenomena, craving develops. From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging/sustenance. From clinging/sustenance as a requisite condition comes becoming. From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth. From birth as a requisite condition, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair come into play. Such is the origin of this entire mass of suffering & stress.

"Now, in one who keeps focusing on the drawbacks of clingable phenomena, craving ceases. From the cessation of craving comes the cessation of clinging/sustenance. From the cessation of clinging/sustenance comes the cessation of becoming. From the cessation of becoming comes the cessation of birth. From the cessation of birth, then aging, illness & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair all cease. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of suffering & stress.

"Just as if a great mass of fire of ten... twenty... thirty or forty cartloads of timber were burning, into which a man simply would not time & again throw dried grass, dried cow dung, or dried timber, so that the great mass of fire — its original sustenance being consumed, and no other being offered — would, without nutriment, go out. In the same way, in one who keeps focusing on the drawbacks of clingable phenomena, craving ceases. From the cessation of craving comes the cessation of clinging/sustenance. From the cessation of clinging/sustenance comes the cessation of becoming. From the cessation of becoming comes the cessation of birth. From the cessation of birth, then aging, illness & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair all cease. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of suffering & stress."
tiltbillings wrote:Okay, but I still see here no justification for reading upādā­nakkhandhā in the past tense as "appropriated khandhas."
By "appropriated khandhas" I didn't mean just past ones at the exclusion of active appropriations. It's both the "old kamma" (old appropriations) which in the above example would constitute to the "cartloads of timber", and the "new kamma" (new appropriations) as well, which in the above example would be "time & again throw dried grass, dried cow dung, & dried timber". As in the simile, it's both. Only once both are exhausted does the flame goes out, and then there is nibbana. Note: nibbana (cessation of this entire mass of suffering & stress) occurs before the (conventionally defined) death of the arahant... not afterwards, thereby giving a clue as to what it is that goes out.
tiltbillings wrote: My guess is that our opinions are going to be at variance.
That's alright. It's not the end of the loka.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Assaji
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Re: Five aggregates of appropriation (upādānakkhandha)

Post by Assaji »

Hi Retro,

There's a post with more details:

http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 44#p109444" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Best wishes, Dmytro
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Re: Five aggregates of appropriation (upādānakkhandha)

Post by Alex123 »

retrofuturist wrote: Are aggregates extant matter and mentality in the past, present and future for us to observe, or are they instead empty appropriations?
What I remember reading in CMA is that ALL aggregates except for maggaphala cittas are subject to being clung to, even those aggregates of an Arahant can be clung to [by others?].
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Re: Five aggregates of appropriation (upādānakkhandha)

Post by tiltbillings »

retrofuturist wrote:. . . "appropriated khandhas" . . .
For all of that it still escapes me why one would want to use that locution for upādānakkhandha. It doesn't fit.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: Five aggregates of appropriation (upādānakkhandha)

Post by mikenz66 »

I thought I recalled an earlier discussion where it was pointed out that the Buddha only uses the aggregate analysis when speaking about non-arahants, and in the case of arahants any analysis is done in terms of sense bases, not aggregates.

Am I recalling correctly? Is there a sutta where the aggregate analysis is applied to an arahant?

:anjali:
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Re: Five aggregates of appropriation (upādānakkhandha)

Post by tiltbillings »

mikenz66 wrote:I thought I recalled an earlier discussion where it was pointed out that the Buddha only uses the aggregate analysis when speaking about non-arahants, and in the case of arahants any analysis is done in terms of sense bases, not aggregates.

Am I recalling correctly?
Semms to be.
Is there a sutta where the aggregate analysis is applied to an arahant?
Probably not, but that does not mean that arahant does not "have" khandhas; they are simply no longer upādānakkhandha.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: Five aggregates of appropriation (upādānakkhandha)

Post by mikenz66 »

tiltbillings wrote:
mikenz66 wrote:Is there a sutta where the aggregate analysis is applied to an arahant?
Probably not, but that does not mean that arahant does not "have" khandhas; they are simply no longer upādānakkhandha.
I guess my view on khandas is that they, along with sense bases, elements, and the more elaborate abhidhamma classifications, are just ways of observing/classifying experience that gets us beyond gross concepts and breaks down self-view. Given that I find discussions such as these a little confusing. It seems to me that it is the fact that one can cling to these various aspects of experience as "mine" that's the point, so I have a hard time figuring out what the fuss is about. I guess I'm too simplistic, so I should just retire...

However, I will point out that to think that we are "made of" khandhas (or any of the other classificatory terms) would be an error:
http://what-buddha-said.net/library/Bud ... tm#khandha" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Feeling, perception and mental constructions are only different aspects and functions of a single unit of consciousness. They are to consciousness what redness, softness, sweetness, etc. are to an apple and have as little separate existence as those qualities.
:anjali:
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Re: Five aggregates of appropriation (upādānakkhandha)

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Tilt,
tiltbillings wrote:
retrofuturist wrote:. . . "appropriated khandhas" . . .
For all of that it still escapes me why one would want to use that locution for upādānakkhandha. It doesn't fit.
What did you make of Dmytro's old post he linked to? - http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 44#p109444" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
tiltbillings wrote:Probably not, but that does not mean that arahant does not "have" khandhas; they are simply no longer upādānakkhandha.
That seems to accord with the Classical view as far as I understand it (which is, for me at least, unsatisfactory for the same reasons it is unsatisfactory to Ven. Nanananda).

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Five aggregates of appropriation (upādānakkhandha)

Post by vinasp »

Hi everyone,

The six internal sense-spheres have ceased for an arahant.

See: SN 56.14 [ not yet available on ATI.]

It is the four noble truths, but the truth of suffering is just the six internal
sense-spheres, all the rest is the same as in the standard version.

Regards, Vincent.
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Re: Five aggregates of appropriation (upādānakkhandha)

Post by santa100 »

Bhikkhu Bodhi's lecture on MN 44 (ref: http://bodhimonastery.org/courses/MN/MP ... MN-044.mp3" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ) went over the definition of "clinging" versus "clinging aggregates" at around 51:00 min. to 58:00 min. He also mentioned that enlightened beings still possess the 5 clinging aggregates in the sense that the aggregates were produced by past clinging at around 66:00 min. Hope this helps..
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Re: Five aggregates of appropriation (upādānakkhandha)

Post by vinasp »

Hi everyone,

"Bhikkhus, there are these Four Noble Truths. What four? The noble truth of
suffering, the noble truth of the origin of suffering, the noble truth of the
cessation of suffering, the noble truth of the way leading to the cessation of
suffering.
And what, bhikkhus, is the noble truth of suffering? It should be said: the
six internal sense bases. What six? The eye base ... the mind base. This is
called the noble truth of suffering.

[ What follows is the same as in the standard version.]

[ Bhikkhu Bodhi, Connected Discourses, page 1848, part of SN 56.14 ]

[ samudaya is incorrectly translated - as usual, it should be: uprising.]

Regards, Vincent.
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Re: Five aggregates of appropriation (upādānakkhandha)

Post by vinasp »

Hi everyone,

The preceding sutta SN 56.13 is also a modified version of the four noble
truths. It has "the five aggregates subject to clinging" as the truth of
suffering.

Does this mean that the five aggregates subject to clinging, and the six
internal sense bases, have both ceased on completion of the noble eightfold
path?

If so, since they cannot be exactly the same thing, I would suggest that the
six internal sense bases are a part of the five aggregates of clinging.

Regards, Vincent.
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Re: Five aggregates of appropriation (upādānakkhandha)

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Vincent,
vinasp wrote:Does this mean that the five aggregates subject to clinging, and the six internal sense bases, have both ceased on completion of the noble eightfold path?
I say yes. If the housebuilder (potentially represented by the tendency to ignorance, avijja-anusaya) is destroyed, there will be no designation (nama-rupa) and appropriation (upadana) of these things. Of course, in the absence of those, no jati either.
vinasp wrote:If so, since they cannot be exactly the same thing, I would suggest that the six internal sense bases are a part of the five aggregates of clinging.
I don't see why they can't be the same - perhaps you can elaborate further on this point?

Arguably the five aggregates, sixfold-sense-sphere, loka, sabba, sankhata dhammas, paticcasamuppada and samsara are all just different ways of looking at the designation and appropriation of experience.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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