No sankhata dhammas existing outside of present awareness

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Re: No sankhata dhammas existing outside of present awareness

Post by retrofuturist » Sat Apr 21, 2012 6:20 am

Greetings Sarva,
Sarva wrote:I would have to refute "anatta" to show that there is some form of continuous foundation.
Good call. :thumbsup:
Sarva wrote:What about "awareness", there is the awareness of something and awarness of no thing, however this "awareness" is not observable itself, in other words it is an "unobservable phenomena", or would you disagree? I am curious how to get around that.
I'm a bit confused as to what you mean here. Is there any chance you could recast your question with reference to Pali terminology such as vinnana or manasikara?
Sarva wrote:Incidentally, do you know if the Buddhist perspective on breaking 'repetitive tendencies' is the same for breaking any form of craving or if there is a different method? :)
An excellent question, and hopefully one we can explore a bit further in this topic. The short answer I would put forward is that all sankharas depend on avijja, so whatever mental cultivation reduces avijja reduces sankharas.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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Re: No sankhata dhammas existing outside of present awareness

Post by tiltbillings » Sat Apr 21, 2012 6:38 am

Sarva wrote:I would have to refute "anatta" to show that there is some form of continuous foundation.
No need for a continuous foundation, whatever that might mean; however, there is continuity, it seems.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re: No sankhata dhammas existing outside of present awareness

Post by tiltbillings » Sat Apr 21, 2012 6:42 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Tilt,

Yes, the workings of which the Buddha called unconjecturable.
I am certainly not advocating untoward conjecture; just pointing out that all that is involved with the various concepts of sankhāra is not always readily apparent.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re: No sankhata dhammas existing outside of present awareness

Post by tiltbillings » Sat Apr 21, 2012 6:54 am

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... ay_43.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re: No sankhata dhammas existing outside of present awareness

Post by Sarva » Sat Apr 21, 2012 7:03 am

tiltbillings wrote:
Sarva wrote:I would have to refute "anatta" to show that there is some form of continuous foundation.
No need for a continuous foundation, whatever that might mean; however, there is continuity, it seems.
Hi Tilt
That is true if we can confirm that phenomena have no permanent or continuous existence in themselves, for example, my memories of yesterday are true today. However we can say the memories are empty of any real self or continuum, so they are just rising and falling into our awareness. It is awareness or rather anicca which brings them to life, so to speak. So memories (or anything for that matter) have no hold over us unless we recall them into our awareness and label them "me or mine".

The point of phenomena being empty of any essence, self or 'continuous foundation' is anatta. It is because of anatta that no thing is me and hence I am free from all things, including "The All". I understand this to be the crux of Retro's point above. For someone who holds that "unobservable phenomena" exist when unobserved then there needs to be continuum, either of the phenomena or the observer. My question is, isn't awareness itself a continuum as it requires awareness for both the 'observable and unobservable phenomena' to be known?

I know you may know all this, but hope to explain that is why I am asking Retro for denial of a 'continuous foundation' :)
“Both formerly & now, it is only stress that I describe, and the cessation of stress.” — SN 22:86

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Re: No sankhata dhammas existing outside of present awareness

Post by tiltbillings » Sat Apr 21, 2012 7:05 am

Sarva wrote: The point of phenomena being empty of any essence, self or 'continuous foundation' is anatta. It is because of anatta that no thing is me and hence I am free from all things, including "The All".
Don't forget that you are also no different from the "All."
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re: No sankhata dhammas existing outside of present awareness

Post by retrofuturist » Sat Apr 21, 2012 7:08 am

Greetings,
Bhikkhu Bodhi wrote:In the suttas the word occurs in three major doctrinal contexts.
Nanavira Thera wrote:Sankhāra, in all contexts, means 'something that something else depends on', that is to say a determination (determinant).
Source: http://nanavira.org/index.php?option=co ... &Itemid=84" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

:jedi:

The Realist vs The Phenomenologist

:lol:

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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Re: No sankhata dhammas existing outside of present awareness

Post by tiltbillings » Sat Apr 21, 2012 7:19 am

retrofuturist wrote: The Realist vs The Phenomenologist
Now there is an in-depth analysis. Stunning and as scintillating as rhinestone.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re: No sankhata dhammas existing outside of present awareness

Post by retrofuturist » Sat Apr 21, 2012 7:23 am

Greetings Tilt,

It's only a laugh, no harm done.
Venerable Nanananda wrote:“I’m sure you have read Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi’s trans­la­tion of the Saṃyutta Nikāya. You must have come across the Pheṇapindūpama Sutta. In the notes you’ll see Ven. Bodhi explain­ing that although the lump is illu­sory, the ingre­di­ents aren’t. It is worse when it comes to the magic show. He says that only the magic is not real; the magician’s appur­te­nances are. This is a dis­tor­tion of the sim­ile given by the Bud­dha. We must appre­ci­ate the great work done by Ven. Bodhi, but it is unfor­tu­nate that he is bound by the com­men­tar­ial tradition.
Source: http://nidahas.com/2010/09/nanananda-heretic-sage-2/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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Re: No sankhata dhammas existing outside of present awareness

Post by Sarva » Sat Apr 21, 2012 7:29 am

tiltbillings wrote:
Sarva wrote: The point of phenomena being empty of any essence, self or 'continuous foundation' is anatta. It is because of anatta that no thing is me and hence I am free from all things, including "The All".
Don't forget that you are also no different from the "All."
Hi Tilt
I am hesitant to open further the can of worms I opened above but here goes:
The Blessed One said, "What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. [1] Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range."
SN35.23 link; http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I am that which is beyond range.

Respectfully,
Sarva.
“Both formerly & now, it is only stress that I describe, and the cessation of stress.” — SN 22:86

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Re: No sankhata dhammas existing outside of present awareness

Post by Sarva » Sat Apr 21, 2012 7:32 am

retrofuturist wrote: (cut for space)
Sarva wrote:What about "awareness", there is the awareness of something and awarness of no thing, however this "awareness" is not observable itself, in other words it is an "unobservable phenomena", or would you disagree? I am curious how to get around that.
I'm a bit confused as to what you mean here. Is there any chance you could recast your question with reference to Pali terminology such as vinnana or manasikara?
Hi Retro
I answered Tilt before seeing your reply, so hopefully there might be some clarity in my question above. Although I have blundered an answer in my very own question above, but would appreciate your shared insight if you have the momentum to reply :)

I am very new to the sutta and pali :embarassed: I used 'awareness' because I was not sure if there is a term in Pali, I guess "pure consciousness". Or a bit more clear:
"There remains only consciousness: pure & bright. What does one cognize with that consciousness? One cognizes 'pleasure.' One cognizes 'pain.' One cognizes 'neither pleasure nor pain.' In dependence on a sensory contact that is to be felt as pleasure, there arises a feeling of pleasure.
MN140 link
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Or "Luminous is the mind" AN 1.49-52
Link: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Interestingly I came across the Buddha's words trying to find how Gautama calls it and came across an interesting explanation, I hope I am not derailing your thread by sharing it here, just for friendly interest:
"He discerns that 'Whatever disturbances that would exist based on the perception of village are not present. Whatever disturbances that would exist based on the perception of human being are not present. There is only this modicum of disturbance: the singleness based on the perception of wilderness.' He discerns that 'This mode of perception is empty of the perception of village. This mode of perception is empty of the perception of human being. There is only this non-emptiness: the singleness based on the perception of wilderness.' Thus he regards it as empty of whatever is not there. Whatever remains, he discerns as present: 'There is this.' And so this, his entry into emptiness, accords with actuality, is undistorted in meaning, & pure.
MN 121 link: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
retrofuturist wrote: (An excellent question, and hopefully one we can explore a bit further in this topic. The short answer I would put forward is that all sankharas depend on avijja, so whatever mental cultivation reduces avijja reduces sankharas.

Metta,
Retro. :)
Thank you, I think you hit the nail on the head with your answer regarding avijja. I will keep up with topic to see if this question returns. :anjali:

EDIT: sorry, indentation now fixed.
“Both formerly & now, it is only stress that I describe, and the cessation of stress.” — SN 22:86

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Re: No sankhata dhammas existing outside of present awareness

Post by tiltbillings » Sat Apr 21, 2012 7:32 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Tilt,

It's only a laugh, no harm done.
Venerable Nanananda wrote:“I’m sure you have read Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi’s trans­la­tion of the Saṃyutta Nikāya. You must have come across the Pheṇapindūpama Sutta. In the notes you’ll see Ven. Bodhi explain­ing that although the lump is illu­sory, the ingre­di­ents aren’t. It is worse when it comes to the magic show. He says that only the magic is not real; the magician’s appur­te­nances are. This is a dis­tor­tion of the sim­ile given by the Bud­dha. We must appre­ci­ate the great work done by Ven. Bodhi, but it is unfor­tu­nate that he is bound by the com­men­tar­ial tradition.
Source: http://nidahas.com/2010/09/nanananda-heretic-sage-2/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Metta,
Retro. :)
Yes, well, I like Ven Nanananda's clarity of expression and thought, but I can't stand the unnecessarily overblown writing and mental contortion-ism of Nanavira, which some folks mistake as being profundity. Ven Nanananda's criticisms of Ven Bodshi are on target in the above quote, but the essay I linked by Ven Bodhi, except for the last short paragraph, is a fairly decent overview of sankhara as it is used in the suttas. Poor Ven Bodhi is not totally stupid.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re: No sankhata dhammas existing outside of present awareness

Post by retrofuturist » Sat Apr 21, 2012 7:56 am

Greetings Sarva,
Sarva wrote:if you have the momentum to reply :)
Given the nature of your post, I think it might be worthwhile investigating nama-rupa.

Given this section is focused on the Sutta Pitaka, I'll start you off with this from MN9 (alas in this online translation nama-rupa is crudely translated as mentality-materiality, whereas the literal name-and-form translation would be preferable IMO)...
"Then they asked him a further question: "But, friend, might there be another way in which a noble disciple is one of right view... and has arrived at this true Dhamma?" — "There might be, friends.

"When, friends, a noble disciple understands mentality-materiality, the origin of mentality-materiality, the cessation of mentality-materiality, and the way leading to the cessation of mentality-materiality, in that way he is one of right view... and has arrived at this true Dhamma.

"And what is mentality-materiality, what is the origin of mentality-materiality, what is the cessation of mentality-materiality, what is the way leading to the cessation of mentality-materiality? Feeling, perception, volition, contact and attention — these are called mentality. The four great elements and the material form derived from the four great elements — these are called materiality. So this mentality and this materiality are what is called mentality-materiality. With the arising of consciousness there is the arising of mentality-materiality. With the cessation of consciousness there is the cessation of mentality-materiality. The way leading to the cessation of mentality-materiality is just this Noble Eightfold Path; that is, right view... right concentration.

"When a noble disciple has thus understood mentality-materiality, the origin of mentality-materiality, the cessation of mentality-materiality, and the way leading to the cessation of mentality-materiality... he here and now makes an end of suffering. In that way too a noble disciple is one of right view... and has arrived at this true Dhamma."
... and suggest if you're interested in further exploration, to investigate the words of Venerable Nanananda (e.g. Magic Of The Mind, Concept And Reality, The Nibbana Sermons)

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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Re: No sankhata dhammas existing outside of present awareness

Post by Sarva » Sat Apr 21, 2012 8:10 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Sarva,

... and suggest if you're interested in further exploration, to investigate the words of Venerable Nanananda (e.g. Magic Of The Mind, Concept And Reality, The Nibbana Sermons)

Metta,
Retro. :)
I will.
Many thanks for your helpful replies, Retro :)
“Both formerly & now, it is only stress that I describe, and the cessation of stress.” — SN 22:86

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Re: No sankhata dhammas existing outside of present awareness

Post by tiltbillings » Sat Apr 21, 2012 8:10 am

Sarva wrote:I am that which is beyond range.
If you are meaning that what you ultimately, in some way, are “beyond range,” that is just Hinduism or a variation of buddha-nature (in its more reified expression).

Don't forget that Who sees paticcasamuppada sees Dhamma, who sees Dhamma sees paticcasamuppda. - MN 1 190-1.

Seeing the Dhamma is an expression indicating awakening. The word dhamma (plural) could easily and reasonably be substituted for paticcasamuppada, given that components of the various expressions of paticcasamuppada are dhamma manifesting interdepedent nature.

Who sees dhamma sees Dhamma, who sees Dhamma sees dhamma. And the "All" is one way of talking about the dhammas experienced. What is “beyond range” is the assuming that there is some thing, some "I am" that experiences the "All." Keep in mind that the "All" sutta is a response to the Brhadaranyaka Upanisad claim that Brahman/atman is the "All."

"When, Bahiya, for you there will be only the seen in the seen, only the heard in the heard, only the sensed in the sensed, only the cognized in the cognized, then, Bahiya, there is no you in terms of that. When there is no you in terms of that, there is no you there. When there is no you there, you are neither here nor yonder nor between the two. This, just this, is the end of suffering." -- Udana 10. This all plays itself in the "All" and no place else. There is no thing other than our experience and insight into the "All" -- into the khandhas and paticcasamuppada -- that the Dhamma is seen, known, realized, and it is seen, realized, known not by any "thing" “beyond range” of the "All."

Sabbapariññaa Sutta (Itivuttaka, Sutta 7):

Bhikkhus, one who has not directly known and fully understood the ‘All’ (sabba), who has not detached his mind from it and abandoned it, is incapable of destroying suffering. But one who has directly known (abhijaana) and fully understood (parijaana) the ‘All’, and who has detached his mind from it and abandoned it, is capable of destroying suffering.

And keep in mind that the “mind” is not different from the “All”:

Ven Nanananda’s translation and commentary: It is in this very fathom-long physical frame with its perceptions and mind, that, I declare, lies the world, and the arising of the world, and the cessation of the world, and the path leading to the cessation of the world."[26]

26.The import of this significant declaration can be understood in the context of those suttas in which the Buddha defines the concept of the world. The 'world,' for the Buddha, arises in the six sense-spheres (See above Note 21). Hence its cessation too, is to be experienced there, in the cessation of the six sense-spheres (salaayatananirodha). "I will teach you, monks, how the world comes to be and passes away... What monks, is the arising of the world? Dependent on eye and forms, arises visual consciousness. The concurrence of the three is contact. Conditioned by contact is feeling. Conditioned by feeling, craving. Conditioned by craving, grasping. Conditioned by grasping, becoming. Conditioned by becoming, birth. And conditioned by birth, arise decay, death, grief lamentation, suffering, despair. This is the arising of the world.
And what, monks, is the passing away of the world? Dependent on the eye and forms arise visual consciousness. The concurrence of the three is contact. Conditioned by contact is feeling. Conditioned by feeling is craving. By the utter fading away and cessation of that craving, grasping ceases, by the ceasing of grasping, becoming ceases, by the ceasing of becoming birth ceases, by the ceasing of birth, decay-and-death, grief, lamentation, suffering, despair, cease. Such is the ceasing of this entire man of Ill.

— SN 2.26

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... tml#fnt-26" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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