Porn Free for 90 Days

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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Ben
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Re: Porn Free for 90 Days

Post by Ben » Mon Apr 09, 2012 10:09 am

Hi Don,
I appreciate your frustration with my response. However, having witnessed the various discussions on masturbation - one of which is nearly 100 pages in extent, canvassing widely for your opinions may lead to greater confusion rather than clarity.
If I have time later tonight I will reply with a more substantial reply to my earlier one.
kind regards,

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: ben.dhammawheel@gmail.com..

dhamma_newb
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Re: Porn Free for 90 Days

Post by dhamma_newb » Mon Apr 09, 2012 10:16 am

Ben wrote:Hi Don,
I appreciate your frustration with my response. However, having witnessed the various discussions on masturbation - one of which is nearly 100 pages in extent, canvassing widely for your opinions may lead to greater confusion rather than clarity.
If I have time later tonight I will reply with a more substantial reply to my earlier one.
kind regards,

Ben
Hi Ben,

You totally misunderstood what I said.
dhamma_newb wrote:
Ben wrote:Hi Don,
dhamma_newb wrote:So where does a lay-person go for clarification on what a healthy attitude towards sex is?
My suggestion to you is to seek the counsel of some of your lay and monastic Dhamma friends or those that you feel some resonance with or connection with. They maybe able to provide you with some useful guidance and reassurance that you're not alone nor Robinson Caruso.
Why do you think I'm posting this here Ben?
What I meant was that I consider DW members as Dhamma friends and that is why I am seeking advice on this forum.
The watched mind brings happiness.
Dhp 36

I am larger and better than I thought. I did not know I held so much goodness.
Walt Whitman

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Ben
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Re: Porn Free for 90 Days

Post by Ben » Mon Apr 09, 2012 10:44 am

Hi Don,
dhamma_newb wrote: What I meant was that I consider DW members as Dhamma friends and that is why I am seeking advice on this forum.
Yes, I understand that and there is certainly nothing at all wrong with considering DW members as your Dhamma friends. In fact it is admirable.
However, as I mentioned above, casting the net widely and canvassing for the views of many - you will get many differing points of view and no guarantee of consensus. Hence, it may lead you to greater confusion than clarity.
I am fortunate to have a large number of Dhamma friends, though there are very few I speak to about issues relating to my own practice. I seek out the views of those I have a great deal of confidence in. I don't think its such a bad strategy.
kind regards,

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: ben.dhammawheel@gmail.com..

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Mr Man
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Re: Porn Free for 90 Days

Post by Mr Man » Mon Apr 09, 2012 6:48 pm

I think that there is some interesting food for contemplation in this talk by Krishnamurti http://www.jkrishnamurti.org/krishnamur ... &chid=5096.
:anjali:

perkele
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Re: Porn Free for 90 Days

Post by perkele » Mon Apr 09, 2012 8:35 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
dhamma_newb wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:That was one very shallow talk.
Why?
I listened to it again. Early on in the talk our good monk says he is not going make value laden statements, but then towards the end he characterizes sex as being bestial,
Don't you think you are overreacting here a little bit, tilt? I mean, it's true, he used that word. But I did not perceive it to come off as overly judgemental. He rather said it more or less in passing and a bit tongue-in-cheek. Moreover I think it does have some truth to it, a truth that most of us can live with rather comfortably, I guess. I think he conveyed a valid point in quite an unostentatious way.
But well, perceptions vary. Anyway...
tiltbillings wrote: ...
As for what you are going to get of your 90 day experiment, I would suggest that there be no expectations; rather, I would suggest that you be as open as you can be to what your experience tells you, and even that should be open to question.
Agree.

@Don: Good to hear you're still well on track. I for one think that this is a worthwhile endeavour, no matter the "end-result", so thanks for initiating this. :twothumbsup: I intend to carry this through. It's been worthwhile so far.

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rowboat
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Re: Porn Free for 90 Days

Post by rowboat » Mon Apr 09, 2012 11:43 pm

tiltbilllings: One is going to see a lot of sex-negative/body-negative unhealthy stuff. Actually, there is no simple answer to the question, and like anything as we move through life we need to be kind to ourselves and to question our answers.
I believe that renunciation is about as simple and direct an answer that one could ask for.

In the words of Ven. Bhikkhu Pesala:
Blameless sex may well be conducive to physical and emotional well-being. It is not immoral to have sex with one’s own wife or husband. However, it is not wholesome kamma either. Renunciation of sexual pleasures is wholesome kamma, and chastity is essential for those intent on gaining realisation of the Dhamma. “For as long as the slightest brushwood (of the passions) of man towards women is not cut down, so long is his mind in bondage, like the milch calf to its mother-cow.” (Dhp v.284) A lay person can enjoy sex from time to time, but it will inevitably lead to attachment, grief, and despair in the long term. It is therefore wise to treat it with respect, as one treats a fire in one’s own home.
Verily:
Just as from the coming together and rubbing of two sticks of wood heat results and fire is produced, and by the separation and disconnection of the sticks, the heat produced by them ceases and disappears, so it is also with these three feelings which are born of sense-impression, rooted in sense-impression, caused by sense-impression, dependent on sense-impression: dependent on a sense-impression of a certain kind there arises a corresponding feeling; by the cessation of that sense-impression the corresponding feeling ceases. SN 36.10
Rain soddens what is covered up,
It does not sodden what is open.
Therefore uncover what is covered
That the rain will not sodden it.
Ud 5.5

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tiltbillings
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Re: Porn Free for 90 Days

Post by tiltbillings » Tue Apr 10, 2012 5:31 am

perkele wrote:Don't you think you are overreacting here a little bit, tilt? I mean, it's true, he used that word. But I did not perceive it to come off as overly judgemental. . . . .
Maybe not overly judgmental, but judgmental in that comment and several that followed, nonetheless.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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tiltbillings
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Re: Porn Free for 90 Days

Post by tiltbillings » Tue Apr 10, 2012 5:45 am

rowboat wrote:
tiltbilllings: One is going to see a lot of sex-negative/body-negative unhealthy stuff. Actually, there is no simple answer to the question, and like anything as we move through life we need to be kind to ourselves and to question our answers.
I believe that renunciation is about as simple and direct an answer that one could ask for.
Except renunciation may not be at all a healthy response to sex.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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reflection
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Re: Porn Free for 90 Days

Post by reflection » Tue Apr 10, 2012 6:46 am

tiltbillings wrote:
rowboat wrote:
tiltbilllings: One is going to see a lot of sex-negative/body-negative unhealthy stuff. Actually, there is no simple answer to the question, and like anything as we move through life we need to be kind to ourselves and to question our answers.
I believe that renunciation is about as simple and direct an answer that one could ask for.
Except renunciation may not be at all a healthy response to sex.
That's for each individual to determine for him/herself. People participating in these 90 days may think their 'old' attitude towards sex was the "unhealthy" (I prefer to name it unskillful) one. And I don't think renunciation is unskillful/unhealthy at all; especially if you take in mind that renunciation is not the same as suppresion.

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Ben
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Re: Porn Free for 90 Days

Post by Ben » Tue Apr 10, 2012 7:22 am

reflection wrote:especially if you take in mind that renunciation is not the same as suppresion.
And that is key, I think.
The line between suppression and renunciation is a very subtle and blurry one. We can very easily talk ourselves into believing that developing aversion towards sense desires (whatever it may be) is renunciation.
Certainly, it is for each individual to determine for him or herself. But I would encourage anyone engaged in the "90-day challenge" to deeply, honestly and continuously investigate one's mental state and motivation.
And I wish everyone engaged in the challenge all the very best and every success.
with metta,

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: ben.dhammawheel@gmail.com..

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tiltbillings
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Re: Porn Free for 90 Days

Post by tiltbillings » Tue Apr 10, 2012 7:47 am

reflection wrote:That's for each individual to determine for him/herself.
Well, I am not the arbiter of what is a healthy response to sex, but I seen have a fair bit of unhealthy responses to sex.
And I don't think renunciation is unskillful/unhealthy at all; especially if you take in mind that renunciation is not the same as suppresion.
The issue is not suppression, it is repression. Repressed sexuality can give rise to very negative views of sex, of women (if one is male) and so forth. And it is easy enough to run through a list of "renunciates" who have acted badly sexually because they have not really come to grips with their own sexuality. One thing that would constitute, in part, a healthy response to sex is being comfortable with one's sexual feelings, even if they are uncomfortable.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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reflection
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Re: Porn Free for 90 Days

Post by reflection » Tue Apr 10, 2012 12:19 pm

Hi guys,

Indeed, there is a danger in inproper suppression of lust. Thanks for the warnings and support. I also want to send my support to everybody who wants to try this.

But there is also danger in lust, and there is a skillful way to deal with it, following the dhamma. Whatever this skillful way is, is best found through both referring to suttas and teachers, but also by just trying, I think. It is probably different for everybody, with different minds with different attachments, at different stages of the practice, so we have to determine the best way for ourselves. We're all different.

Some may be at comfort with their current sexual activity/feelings, and others are not. For those who are not, I think it is not about becoming at comfort with it, but about changing it. To overcome an attachment, one shouldn't be comfortable with it; one should recognize it, see how it is uncomfortable (dukkha) to oneself and try to abandon it skillfully.

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tiltbillings
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Re: Porn Free for 90 Days

Post by tiltbillings » Tue Apr 10, 2012 1:04 pm

reflection wrote:Hi guys, . . . .
Just out of curiosity, how old are you? Married or in a long term relationship?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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reflection
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Re: Porn Free for 90 Days

Post by reflection » Tue Apr 10, 2012 4:27 pm

Hi,

I'm in my mid 20's and I am not in a relationship.

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ground
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Re: Porn Free for 90 Days

Post by ground » Tue Apr 10, 2012 5:32 pm

Maybe a bit provocative but maybe worthwhile pondering ...

Actually there may be persons who do not have an issue with porn. So what is it that makes this an issue? The awareness of the immorality of the business and feeling as if supporting this through consumption of it? But in this case one should look at everything one consumes as a consumer and one will find inevitably products one consumes which are supported by immoral business.
Or is it being addicted and being driven to waste the time for it which one actually would prefer to spend for something else?
Or is it that one gets obsessed through it which then modifies one's perception and leads to social problems?

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