Trouble settling...

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.
MMK23
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Re: Trouble settling...

Post by MMK23 »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings MMK,

Sorry, your questions are getting confusing... :thinking:

Is there any chance you could reword them so I understand exactly what it is you're asking?

Metta,
Retro. :)
LOL. Good idea. Give me a while it's a very slow few days :thinking:
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Ngawang Drolma.
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Re: Trouble settling...

Post by Ngawang Drolma. »

Hi Mikenz66,

This is really great! :anjali:
“Why did Mahāsi Sayādaw ignore ānāpānasati, which was directly taught by the Buddha, but introduced the rising-falling method?”

“Is ānāpānasati the same in essence as vipassanā and meditating on rising and falling, and able to lead to magga-phala and nibbāna?”

In answering these questions, Panditārāma Sayādaw explained the teachings of the Mahāsi Sayādaw as follows.

Ānāpānasati can take two directions. If the meditator strives to be mindful of the form or manner of the in-breath and the out-breath, then it is samatha meditation and leads to one pointed of mind. On the other hand, if the meditator notes the sensation of the in-breath and out-breath as it moves and touches, then it is vipassanā meditation. The element of wind or motion (vayo-dhātu) is rūpa or matter, while the awareness or consciousness of the sensation is nāma or mind. Therefore, ānāpānasati can be considered as vipassanā, and can lead to high levels of insight wisdom. However, in the Visuddhimagga, in the section on kāyānupassana, or mindfulness of body, fourteen objects of meditation are discussed, and further subdivided into objects for samatha and vipassanā meditation. In the Visuddhimagga, ānāpānasati is presented as an object of samatha meditation. Consequently, if we are to instruct meditators to develop ānāpānasati as part of vipassanā meditation, we will be inviting much unwanted and unwarranted criticism and controversy. And neither Mahāsi Sayādaw or myself would want to argue here that the Visuddhimagga, the rightly venerated classic, is at fault here.

It has been said that by noting the rising and falling of the abdomen, meditators are distancing themselves from the teachings of the Buddha. The answer to this is a firm and definite “no.” Quite apart from the success that meditators have achieved by noting rising-falling, there is much solid evidence in the Buddhist scriptures, such as Salāyatana Vagga Samyutta, to show that the method is very much a part of the Buddha’s teachings regarding mindfulness of the body, mindfulness of the elements (dhātu), and mindfulness of the five aggregates (khandhas).
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retrofuturist
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Re: Trouble settling...

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,

I didn't like the subservience the above quotation showed with respect to the Visudhimagga classification of anapanasati as samatha only, despite the fact that the last two thirds or more of...

MN 118: Anapanasati Sutta
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

... are clearly about vipassana.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Ngawang Drolma.
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Re: Trouble settling...

Post by Ngawang Drolma. »

Thanks for pointing that out Retro.

:anjali:
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mikenz66
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Re: Trouble settling...

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi Retro,
retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,
I didn't like the subservience the above quotation showed with respect to the Visudhimagga classification of anapanasati as samatha only, despite the fact that the last two thirds or more of...
MN 118: Anapanasati Sutta
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

... are clearly about vipassana.
Actually, Ven Pandita seems to agree with you.

What he says is not so much subservience as wanting to avoid arguments...
Consequently, if we are to instruct meditators to develop ānāpānasati as part of vipassanā meditation, we will be inviting much unwanted and unwarranted criticism and controversy. And neither Mahāsi Sayādaw or myself would want to argue here that the Visuddhimagga, the rightly venerated classic, is at fault here.
Metta
Mike
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retrofuturist
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Re: Trouble settling...

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Mike,

Maybe so... but it's a sad state of affairs when you can't defend the Buddhaword of the suttas, simply because the Visuddhimagga enthusiasts might get in a huff about it.

:juggling:

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
MMK23
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Re: Trouble settling...

Post by MMK23 »

retrofuturist wrote:I didn't like the subservience the above quotation showed with respect to the Visudhimagga classification of anapanasati as samatha only, despite the fact that the last two thirds or more of...

MN 118: Anapanasati Sutta
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

... are clearly about vipassana.
Hey Retro! I started a thread about these sorts of issues - http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=1425" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; - and I would love to hear if you have more thoughts on this :-) Even if it's just to draw upon what you've said here I'd love to hear it. I note later in this thread you mentioned:
Maybe so... but it's a sad state of affairs when you can't defend the Buddhaword of the suttas, simply because the Visuddhimagga enthusiasts might get in a huff about it.
Which is exactly the sort of thing I was asking about :-) So clearly you feel that there are complications created by the commentarial treatment of anapanasati, care to share more?

MMK23
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