Less Chatty Metta Bhavana?

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.
User avatar
Cittasanto
Posts: 6646
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:31 pm
Location: Ellan Vannin
Contact:

Re: Less Chatty Metta Bhavana?

Post by Cittasanto »

Mojon wrote:Well, I have had a few bouts of anxiety and depression in the past. And I believe that I've made lifestyle adjustments to help prevent future occurrences. I see this tonglen practice as being completely symbolic. In fact, I almost see it as a symbolic act of breathing in the negativity, healing it, and then breathing it back - again, all symbolic.

It did cross my mind however that just the symbolic act of breathing in a person's suffering could become overwhelming after a while, even if I didn't hold on to it. But on the flip side, how is this different than being there with a shoulder for that person to cry on? You are still, at least mentally, taking on that person's problems and returning loving kindness.

I'm thinking though, that I could borrow the visualization oj just breathing out portion of the tonglen practice and use it to help me make my own metta practice.
why not, instead of a persons suffering, the suffering of a situation? one which you were in?
this would also be in relative keeping to the Buddha's advise to Rahula to reflect before during and after each act, reflect on how you could of acted differently to improve the situation.

I normally come up with 'keep my big mouth shut, fwiw.
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
User avatar
Aloka
Posts: 7797
Joined: Wed Jan 21, 2009 2:51 pm

Re: Less Chatty Metta Bhavana?

Post by Aloka »

ancientbuddhism wrote:
Aloka wrote:I wouldn't recommend this practice for anyone with mental health problems of any description. In the past I have known of people who've already been having difficulties with anxiety and depression, who've found the Tonglen instructions on the internet and then started practising them, only to start panicking and becoming overwhelmed, because they have strongly felt that they were literally taking in all the suffering of others.
Delusion can turn anything into its own likeness. I still encourage people with these so-called issues to practice.

Hi ancientbuddhism,

I have had a lot of offline experience in a professional capacity both as a counsellor and teacher for young people with emotional and behavioral difficulties and as a complementary therapist, so I have had plenty of one -to -one contact with people who sometimes have quite serious mental health issues, which have also been clinically diagnosed as such.

Some people who have done this practice have actually felt quite ill and afraid after doing it, so personally I think to encourage them to continue to do it alone without any guidance and feedback from a teacher is a grave mistake.

Why encourage someone to end up suffering even more than they were before they attempted a practice they've had no actual instruction for? An offline Tibetan Buddhist teacher is not only able to give the correct instruction which is tailored to the practitioner's needs but can also determine whether its a good idea for that person to attempt this practice in the first place.

Generally, I would always recommend Metta practice as much safer and extremely effective.

with kind wishes


Aloka
User avatar
ancientbuddhism
Posts: 887
Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2011 12:53 pm
Location: Cyberia

Re: Less Chatty Metta Bhavana?

Post by ancientbuddhism »

Aloka wrote: Hi ancientbuddhism,

I have had a lot of offline experience in a professional capacity both as a counsellor and teacher for young people with emotional and behavioral difficulties and as a complementary therapist, so I have had plenty of one -to -one contact with people who sometimes have quite serious mental health issues, which have also been clinically diagnosed as such.

Some people who have done this practice have actually felt quite ill and afraid after doing it, so personally I think to encourage them to continue to do it alone without any guidance and feedback from a teacher is a grave mistake. ...
Sorry, I guess I was thinking of the garden variety metta bhāvana mentioned in the OP and didn't consider Tibetan Buddhism with it's warning labels for the faint of heart.
I say, beware of all enterprises that require new clothes, and not rather a new wearer of clothes.” – Henry David Thoreau, Walden, 1854

Secure your own mask before assisting others. – NORTHWEST AIRLINES (Pre-Flight Instruction)

A Handful of Leaves
User avatar
Spiny O'Norman
Posts: 851
Joined: Sat May 23, 2009 8:46 am
Location: Suffolk, England

Re: Less Chatty Metta Bhavana?

Post by Spiny O'Norman »

tiltbillings wrote:The simplest thing to do is write your own practice.
I agree, I think it's good to be creative and find something that works for us personally - though trying the various approaches described here and elsewhere is obviously useful preparation.

Spiny
User avatar
Lazy_eye
Posts: 996
Joined: Fri Jan 23, 2009 3:23 pm
Location: Laurel, MD
Contact:

Re: Less Chatty Metta Bhavana?

Post by Lazy_eye »

Goofaholix wrote: The idea is to generate a feeling of lovingkindness, this is your primary object, just focus on the feeling and use that feeling to create more of a sense of lovingkindness.
Bodom wrote:In short, he says that once the warm feeling of lovingkindness is experienced (usually felt in the heart/chest area) during meditation, one is to drop the words, phrases and images and focus directly on the warm physical sensation that has arisen.
mikenz66 wrote:It's up to the practitioner to figure out how to cultivate that boundless heart radiating kindness.
This is what I'm having trouble with. It seems that in order to cultivate metta, one must already have the thing one is trying to cultivate. Otherwise it can easily just become a rote formality, similar to the handshaking that goes on in the pews after an Episcopalian Mass.

In breath meditation, there is obviously something there that can become the focus of attention. By contrast, metta is not necessarily there to begin with, so what do we focus on? Its absence?

The Visuddhimagga provides a few suggestions: contemplate your own desire for happiness and consider that others also desire this; contemplate a person's good qualities or (in the case of a person who has wronged you) consider their suffering. I'm curious to know what has been effective for others here.

Maybe I'm just too mean of heart for this practice...!
befriend
Posts: 2284
Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2011 11:39 am

Re: Less Chatty Metta Bhavana?

Post by befriend »

just put your hand over your heart. or hold the image of a loved one in your mind. if you go to dharmaseed.org, and go to Chas Dicapua and find 3 ways of doing metta. this will help have a less chatty metta bhavana.
Take care of mindfulness and mindfulness will take care of you.
befriend
Posts: 2284
Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2011 11:39 am

Re: Less Chatty Metta Bhavana?

Post by befriend »

isnt there someone you love, or someone who has helped you?
Take care of mindfulness and mindfulness will take care of you.
Buckwheat
Posts: 970
Joined: Thu Nov 24, 2011 12:39 am
Location: California USA

Re: Less Chatty Metta Bhavana?

Post by Buckwheat »

Lazy_eye wrote:This is what I'm having trouble with. It seems that in order to cultivate metta, one must already have the thing one is trying to cultivate. Otherwise it can easily just become a rote formality, similar to the handshaking that goes on in the pews after an Episcopalian Mass.

In breath meditation, there is obviously something there that can become the focus of attention. By contrast, metta is not necessarily there to begin with, so what do we focus on? Its absence?
Fake it till you know it. I found the rote ritual was necessary for me to begin with because I have a cold black heart. After a while, the ritual stirred up some things, and I was able to build on those until I had some metta to work with. I still suck at metta, but at least I got off the ground floor. Have faith, you probably aren't that evil. :tongue:

:anjali:
Sotthī hontu nirantaraṃ - May you forever be well.
User avatar
Lazy_eye
Posts: 996
Joined: Fri Jan 23, 2009 3:23 pm
Location: Laurel, MD
Contact:

Re: Less Chatty Metta Bhavana?

Post by Lazy_eye »

Buckwheat wrote: Fake it till you know it. I found the rote ritual was necessary for me to begin with because I have a cold black heart. After a while, the ritual stirred up some things, and I was able to build on those until I had some metta to work with. I still suck at metta, but at least I got off the ground floor. Have faith, you probably aren't that evil.
I'll give it a try. :)

I heard a talk once by a Vietnamese teacher (not TNH, but one of his students) who said something similar -- basically, even though such practices may feel forced at first, over time they become more natural and arise spontaneously.
befriend wrote:just put your hand over your heart. or hold the image of a loved one in your mind. if you go to dharmaseed.org, and go to Chas Dicapua and find 3 ways of doing metta. this will help have a less chatty metta bhavana.
Thanks -- I listened to it yesterday after seeing your recommendation. I like his approach.

I've found that contemplating the good qualities of a particular individual sometimes awakens loving kindness. Particularly if it's someone who I'm annoyed with for some reason, or who I habitually think of with something other than admiration.
User avatar
Ferox
Posts: 79
Joined: Mon Jan 30, 2012 2:16 am
Location: New Jersey, USA
Contact:

Re: Less Chatty Metta Bhavana?

Post by Ferox »

Mayhap you can practice the two types of metta taught by the buddha? exalted and immeasurable metta. Immeasurable metta is sending metta out to all beings in the 6 directions(you do each direction one at a time), exalted is metta radiating from you and spreading out into the universe( state, country, planet, galaxy, universe.. I add metaverse and all planes as well)... don't even need to use words in those and both involve all beings.
-just one more being treading the ancient path of Dhamma-
User avatar
Lazy_eye
Posts: 996
Joined: Fri Jan 23, 2009 3:23 pm
Location: Laurel, MD
Contact:

Re: Less Chatty Metta Bhavana?

Post by Lazy_eye »

Ferox wrote:Mayhap you can practice the two types of metta taught by the buddha? exalted and immeasurable metta. Immeasurable metta is sending metta out to all beings in the 6 directions(you do each direction one at a time), exalted is metta radiating from you and spreading out into the universe( state, country, planet, galaxy, universe.. I add metaverse and all planes as well)... don't even need to use words in those and both involve all beings.
Hi Ferox,

But first one has to have some metta to radiate, right? That's where I'm getting a little bit stuck. :broke:

Instructions given in the Karaniya Metta Sutta as well as later elaborations are formulated as a wish. (May this...may that...). The problem is how to make the wish sincere.
Post Reply