The thought that stops......

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.
rucontent
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The thought that stops......

Post by rucontent »

Let me see if this can make it out of words....................................................

While sitting....using the analogy of watching the mouse hole.....I can see some thoughts before they happen....and even witness/influencing them ceasing to finish their thought.....but its so basic that it applies to any sentence i even think.....so im wondering how will any material for the grind stone get out? I find it useful to sometimes inject a word related to something that creates a stir in me....

edit:
I know that we are NOT supposed to try to stop thoughts/resist but i am not trying....i see them they stop......



Here's my question for you "what's your question?" folks:

What is going on? Thoughts stop but i am not really trying. Am i doing something wrong? If not, how does this help wise action i want to take in my life on say Aversion, Doubt, Desire, Restlessness, Torpor?

Just be patient Grasshopper? IF so that is fine, I would accept that.
Last edited by rucontent on Tue Mar 27, 2012 8:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
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DarwidHalim
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Location: Neither Samsara nor Nirvana

Re: The thought that stops......

Post by DarwidHalim »

Why we have to stop thoughts?
I am not here nor there.
I am not right nor wrong.
I do not exist neither non-exist.
I am not I nor non-I.
I am not in samsara nor nirvana.
To All Buddhas, I bow down for the teaching of emptiness. Thank You!
rucontent
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Re: The thought that stops......

Post by rucontent »

DarwidHalim wrote:Why we have to stop thoughts?
Please see edit......

I meant that i know we are NOT supposed to TRY and stop thought........
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DarwidHalim
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Re: The thought that stops......

Post by DarwidHalim »

rucontent wrote: What is going on? Thoughts stop but i am not really trying. Am i doing something wrong? If not, how does this help wise action i want to take in my life on say Aversion, Doubt, Desire, Restlessness, Torpor?

Just be patient Grasshopper? IF so that is fine, I would accept that.
The main problem is patient.

When we see the thought, the thought can disappear. It can disappear in 2 ways, by force (purposely stop it), or it stops naturally.

SInce it is natural, when the thoughts appear, they are also 2 possibilities. One when we look at it, it stop naturally stright away. Second, when we look at it, it keeps going on and on and on. It takes time for it to stop naturally.

FOr the second one, when the thought of desire appear, if it appears for 20 minutes, we have to be patient for 20 minutes.

This approach is the big problem.

The problem lies in not knowing the nature of that thought. If we know the nature of that thought, when the desire appear in the meditation, there is no such thing called patient.

Someone will be in patient mode, only if that person is in an effort of waiting something to pass away. THere is something he dislike. Because he dislike it, and because he is not supposed to change anything, he only left with 1 option, which is patient.

So, the meditation sometime become the exercise to become the Olympic champion in training patient. We are trying to become the macho man in patient.

Patient is good, and meditation can build that, it is good. However, that is not the purpose of buddhist meditation.

If we can see the nature of the thoughts that appear during meditation, for example desire, we won't do anything and we will be completely relax. There is no such thing called patient.

If someone comes to our house, because we don't know who he is, we will naturally very cautious with that person, as if that person is someone who is very dangerous, or someone who is very holly.

But if we know that the true face of that person, his existance, whether he will be in that house for 100 years, or 100000 years, it won't bother us. We don't need to be patient with him, we naturally don't need to do anything to him.

Same thing here. When the thought of desire arise, there is really zero efforts in responding to its presence.

In meditation, as long as there is still an effort, such as patient, there is still something real in our view.

So, we need to again and again see the nature of everything until we reach the state of zero efforts.

Instead of becoming Olympic Champion or macho man in patient, it is better if you see the nature of whatever appear to you nakedly. Someday, once you really know them, you will see that actually patient is a mistake for this case.

Patient is really the action due to not knowing who it is.

This effort of patient block your meditation to go further.
I am not here nor there.
I am not right nor wrong.
I do not exist neither non-exist.
I am not I nor non-I.
I am not in samsara nor nirvana.
To All Buddhas, I bow down for the teaching of emptiness. Thank You!
santa100
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Re: The thought that stops......

Post by santa100 »

Nicely put DarwidHalim. Just want to add that the true nature of every single thought, is the same as any other phenomena in life: anicca, dukkha, and anatta; Remember the 3 marks and you won't be swept away by the flood of thoughts..
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kirk5a
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Re: The thought that stops......

Post by kirk5a »

It has become de rigueur for meditators to claim that "one should just observe the thoughts arising and ceasing." This has become a sort of unquestioned assumption, as if it were the wisest thing in the world to sit and watch yourself thinking.

However, the suttas describe something else:
He should develop mindfulness of in-&-out breathing so as to cut off distractive thinking.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Boom!

What else.
Trivial thoughts, subtle thoughts,
Mental jerkings that follow one along:
Not understanding these mental thoughts,
One runs back and forth with wandering mind.

But having known these mental thoughts,
The ardent and mindful one restrains them.
An awakened one has entirely abandoned them,
These mental jerkings that follow one along.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .irel.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
For one who has mindfulness of in-&-out breathing well established to the fore within oneself, annoying external thoughts & inclinations don't exist.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
But whoever —
walking, standing,
sitting, or lying down —
overcomes thought,
delighting in the stilling of thought:
he's capable,
a monk like this,
of touching superlative
self-awakening.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Wow. Are we getting mislead by those who claim we should simply observe thoughts as they arise?
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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Spiny O'Norman
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Re: The thought that stops......

Post by Spiny O'Norman »

kirk5a wrote:Wow. Are we getting mislead by those who claim we should simply observe thoughts as they arise?

Or by those who claim that jhana is unecessary? ;)

Spiny
daverupa
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Re: The thought that stops......

Post by daverupa »

Good points in the above two posts; fascinating lines of inquiry.

:popcorn:
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
santa100
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Re: The thought that stops......

Post by santa100 »

Obviously it still takes efforts for the contemplation of the 3 Marks of anicca, dukkha, and anatta mentioned in my post above. Actually they're part of the 4th Tetrad of the Anapanasati Sutta (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ), a beautiful sutta that touches on both Samatha (first 3 Tetrads) and Vipassana (last Tetrad).
daverupa
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Re: The thought that stops......

Post by daverupa »

santa100 wrote:Obviously it still takes efforts for the contemplation of the 3 Marks of anicca, dukkha, and anatta mentioned in my post above. Actually they're part of the 4th Tetrad of the Anapanasati Sutta (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ), a beautiful sutta that touches on both Samatha (first 3 Tetrads) and Vipassana (last Tetrad).
It's possible that the fourth tetrad was originally related only to the four hindrances and the seven factors of enlightenment.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
nameless
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Re: The thought that stops......

Post by nameless »

I don't think it's an either/or issue between just observing or restraining/stilling. There is a use for just observing; if you don't just observe and try to meddle too much, you fail to see what's going on and it becomes hard to restrain/still. It's like I suppose a child throwing a tantrum, if you don't listen and try to understand why it is doing so, and just try to shut it up from the start, it will just cause resentment and a pushing back from the child, and it will throw another tantrum the next time a similar situation arises.

When you know what's going on then you can address the restraining/stilling. Just observing isn't useful if you don't put the knowledge you gain to use. If you know why the child is throwing a tantrum then you can address things so that it stops/doesn't do it again.
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Aloka
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Re: The thought that stops......

Post by Aloka »

kirk5a wrote:


Wow. Are we getting mislead by those who claim we should simply observe thoughts as they arise?

When one gently relaxes into awareness with breathing, thoughts naturally settle by themselves. No need for any observation.



.
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reflection
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Re: The thought that stops......

Post by reflection »

As I see it, all the confusion arises due to the choice of words.

On one side, we should not try to stop thoughts, because the attempt can be based on supression or anger. If we find no other way, it is best to just see the thoughts come and go and not try anything; in itself this can learn you a lot.

But, on the other hand, more skilled meditators can apply small tricks to trigger the mind into silence; reflecting on the uselesness of thoughts, finding the silence beneath the thoughts, seeing their non-self or whatever we like to do. So you could call this trying - skilfull trying.

Can you do non-doing or can't you? It's just a choice of words to me.

However, I think it is obvious the fading away of thoughts is a natural effect of meditation and is one we should cultivate.
rucontent
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Re: The thought that stops......

Post by rucontent »

Wow.....

Thank you all for your insights!

I recently stumbled on some mindfulness vs. concentration stuff. I think I should stop watching mouse hole (seems like concentration) and sometimes take in the whole room for balance.
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seeker242
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Re: The thought that stops......

Post by seeker242 »

kirk5a wrote:
Wow. Are we getting mislead by those who claim we should simply observe thoughts as they arise?
No, because you can not stop thoughts from arising! All you can do is make an effort to maintain mindfulness of breathing. If you try to do both, then you are not really maintaining mindfulness of just breathing. :) You are doing two things instead of just one thing, breathing. As I understand it, to observe thoughts as they arise means that you don't split your attention between "breathing" and "stopping thoughts". Your attention is on one thing, breathing. When it come off of breathing you become aware of that (observe the fact that these thought arose) and then return attention to just breathing. This way, you only have one job to do and not two jobs.
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