Atheism is an Unskillful False Dhamma

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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Goofaholix
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Re: Atheism is an Unskillful False Dhamma

Post by Goofaholix »

Ben wrote:Have a read of the Buddha's advice to a group of rebirth skeptics in MN 60: Apannaka Sutta.
It makes for some interesting reading and should put your mind at rest.
with Metta,
I agree with this that avoiding an annihilationist view is a safer bet "If there really is a next world, then this venerable person has made a good throw twice". It's interesting how the Buddha is happy to talk in terms of "If there really is a next world" however according to some people we aren't allowed to do so today. This passage encourages reflection and reason, not faith or blind belief I'd have thought.

This passage still doesn't answer the question though, a safe bet is not the same as a prerequisite.
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
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mikenz66
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Re: Atheism is an Unskillful False Dhamma

Post by mikenz66 »

Goofaholix wrote:
mikenz66 wrote:Not clear what you mean by acceptance, but I guess we agree that views like the following are said in the suttas to be a hindrance to the path:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Nobody is disputing that annihilationism is wrong view as defined in the quotes you posted and have been posted several times throughout the thread.

So on the flip side having agreed rejection is wrong the question is is acceptance mandatory.
It seems clear that not holding a materialist-annihilationist view is mandatory.

Could we discuss what that would mean in practice?

:coffee:
Mike
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retrofuturist
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Re: Atheism is an Unskillful False Dhamma

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Mike,
mikenz66 wrote:It seems clear that not holding a materialist-annihilationist view is mandatory.
Well, Goof did just say, and has been saying throughout that "Nobody is disputing that annihilationism is wrong view".
mikenz66 wrote:Could we discuss what that would mean in practice?
By that, I'm assuming you mean "not holding a materialist-annihilationist view".

In practice, this means not holding a materialist-annihilationist view. Is there more to it than that?

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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mikenz66
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Re: Atheism is an Unskillful False Dhamma

Post by mikenz66 »

retrofuturist wrote: In practice, this means not holding a materialist-annihilationist view. Is there more to it than that?
I think you need to be a little more detailed than that, given the context of this thread. What sort of attitudes towards the idea of post-mortem rebirth does it require?

:anjali:
Mike
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Re: Atheism is an Unskillful False Dhamma

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Mike,
mikenz66 wrote:What sort of attitudes towards the idea of post-mortem rebirth does it require?
Right, which takes us back to the line Goofaholix was pursuing...
goofaholix wrote:What I believe nowheat is asking for is the reference that supports Nana's assertion that belief in (or acceptance of) a worldview that includes literal rebirth as a fact is a prerequisite to the eightfold path and/or a pre-requisite to stream entry.

Something i've been struggling to pin down also.
I too would like to see this.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Goofaholix
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Re: Atheism is an Unskillful False Dhamma

Post by Goofaholix »

mikenz66 wrote:I think you need to be a little more detailed than that, given the context of this thread. What sort of attitudes towards the idea of post-mortem rebirth does it require?
Annihalation means simply annihalation.

I guess it means nothing usually identified as "me" continuing on in some form or other after this body dies, other than as food for words.

No continuation of any of the aggregates in some form or another, no force of becoming or kamma creating a new process.

Metaphysics aside I think though the most significant thing is a lack of a long term view in that the fruits of ones actions bear results even outside of the limited perspective of "my life", taking such a view is self centered and the opposite of what the Buddha was trying to achieve. From what i've observed the force of becoming is so powerful I don't find it hard to believe the affects of it could continue on in some form or another, of course though I don't apply "I", "me", or "mine" to that whatever it is.
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
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Re: Atheism is an Unskillful False Dhamma

Post by Alex123 »

vinasp wrote:Hi Nana,

"Ananda, there are eight reasons, eight causes for the appearance of
a great earthquake. This great earth is established on water, the
water on the wind, the wind on space." [ DN 16.3.13 Walshe 1987 ]

So it seems that the Buddha thought that the earth was flat.

Do you believe that the earth is flat?

Do you want all of us to believe that the earth is flat?

Do you think that the Buddha may have been wrong about that?

If he was wrong about the earth, could he have been wrong about other
things?

Regards, Vincent.
If we turn the diagram upside down, then there is nothing strange.
Continents are surrounded by water which is below them (elevation of earth is typical higher than of the ocean). Above earth there is air (wind) we breath and higher than that it is space (cosmos). Even if we take in the opposite order (go downwards) it still doesn't state that earth is flat.
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Ben
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Re: Atheism is an Unskillful False Dhamma

Post by Ben »

Goofaholix wrote:
Ben wrote:Have a read of the Buddha's advice to a group of rebirth skeptics in MN 60: Apannaka Sutta.
It makes for some interesting reading and should put your mind at rest.
with Metta,
I agree with this that avoiding an annihilationist view is a safer bet "If there really is a next world, then this venerable person has made a good throw twice". It's interesting how the Buddha is happy to talk in terms of "If there really is a next world" however according to some people we aren't allowed to do so today. This passage encourages reflection and reason, not faith or blind belief I'd have thought.
Indeed. I love this sutta because the Buddha doesn't try to convert his skeptical interlocutors. He is very respectful of their attitude and appeals to their sense of reason.
Goofaholix wrote:This passage still doesn't answer the question though, a safe bet is not the same as a prerequisite.
Goof, what I take from this sutta is the message that belief is not a pre-requisite as Geoff seems to be saying. If one acts as though one does believe in rebirth and the existence of heavens and hells and the moral agency of intention (kamma) then one reaps the wholesome and supramundane benefits of those intentions and actions.
with metta,

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

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Re: Atheism is an Unskillful False Dhamma

Post by Prasadachitta »

Hi all,

I think we have the capacity to cultivate a high degree of empathy with beings in the future. With that empathy and as long as a practitioner accepts that the effects of karma are not lost at our death but continue onwards through the future lives of beings to come, there can be a similar result to believing in literal 1 to 1 rebirth. I have experienced this, but I do not reject rebirth as a possibility.

Metta

Prasadachitta
"Beautifully taught is the Lord's Dhamma, immediately apparent, timeless, of the nature of a personal invitation, progressive, to be attained by the wise, each for himself." Anguttara Nikaya V.332
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Goofaholix
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Re: Atheism is an Unskillful False Dhamma

Post by Goofaholix »

Ben wrote:Goof, what I take from this sutta is the message that belief is not a pre-requisite as Geoff seems to be saying. If one acts as though one does believe in rebirth and the existence of heavens and hells and the moral agency of intention (kamma) then one reaps the wholesome and supramundane benefits of those intentions and actions.
with metta,
Yes, it's about actions not beliefs.

I think taking a longer term view that this teaching encourages while acknowleding the uncertainties that surrounds it promotes a sense of awe and respect for the world we live in.

Wheras taking a belief as a consolation could invite complacency, in the sense that there is nothing more to learn.
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
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Goofaholix
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Re: Atheism is an Unskillful False Dhamma

Post by Goofaholix »

Prasadachitta wrote:I think we have the capacity to cultivate a high degree of empathy with beings in the future. With that empathy and as long as a practitioner accepts that the effects of karma are not lost at our death but continue onwards through the future lives of beings to come, there can be a similar result to believing in literal 1 to 1 rebirth. I have experienced this, but I do not reject rebirth as a possibility.
A good point.
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
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mikenz66
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Re: Atheism is an Unskillful False Dhamma

Post by mikenz66 »

retrofuturist wrote:
mikenz66 wrote:What sort of attitudes towards the idea of post-mortem rebirth does it require?
Right, which takes us back to the line Goofaholix was pursuing...
goofaholix wrote:What I believe nowheat is asking for is the reference that supports Nana's assertion that belief in (or acceptance of) a worldview that includes literal rebirth as a fact is a prerequisite to the eightfold path and/or a pre-requisite to stream entry.
Something i've been struggling to pin down also.
I too would like to see this.
I think both of you are skirting around addressing this statement:
mikenz66 wrote:It seems clear that not holding a materialist-annihilationist view is mandatory.
What does not having an annihilationist view mean? Does it imply some sort of rebirth?

:anjali:
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Re: Atheism is an Unskillful False Dhamma

Post by santa100 »

Ven. Thanissaro wrote a great essay called "The Truth of Rebirth - And Why it Matters for Buddhist Practice". Kind of long but definitely a great read..

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... birth.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Atheism is an Unskillful False Dhamma

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Mike,
mikenz66 wrote:What does not having an annihilationist view mean?
Not believing in a self that is annihilated at death.
mikenz66 wrote:Does it imply some sort of rebirth?
No.
Brahmajala Sutta wrote:"There are, bhikkhus, some recluses and brahmins who are speculators about the future, who hold settled views about the future, and who on forty-four grounds assert various conceptual theorems referring to the future. And owing to what, with reference to what, do these honorable recluses and brahmins frame their speculations?
The common theme in all these speculations are that they are soul-theories, and their inherent error arises from them being speculative soul-theories.
Brahmajala Sutta wrote:"Whatever recluses or brahmins, bhikkhus, are speculators about the past or speculators about the future or speculators about the past and the future together, hold settled views about the past and the future, and assert various conceptual theorems referring to the past and the future, all of them do so on these sixty-two grounds or on a certain one of them. Outside of these there is none. This, bhikkhus, the Tathāgata understands."
Therefore, there are no speculations about post-mortem fate that are not speculative soul-theories, according to the Buddha.

So as per comments made to you previously...
Goofaholix wrote:Annihalation means simply annihalation.
retrofuturist wrote:In practice, this means not holding a materialist-annihilationist view. Is there more to it than that?
... and the Blessed One himself...
MN 48 wrote:If a monk is absorbed in speculation about the other world, then his mind is enthralled
mikenz66 wrote:Could we discuss what that would mean in practice?
It means not being given to speculative soul theories.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Goofaholix
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Re: Atheism is an Unskillful False Dhamma

Post by Goofaholix »

mikenz66 wrote:What does not having an annihilationist view mean? Does it imply some sort of rebirth?
No, it could be an agnostic or open minded or non-fixed view or anything in between. Not x does not mean y.

If someone did have a specific view then literal rebirth is not the only one non-annihilationist view. The judeo-Christian heaven/hell and/or resurrection view would be another example, the your relatives hang around in some kind of limbo and can be contacted by mediums and psychics is another, I'm sure there are more.
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
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