The Buddha's Challenge in Teaching the Dhamma

Textual analysis and comparative discussion on early Buddhist sects and scriptures.
User avatar
retrofuturist
Posts: 27839
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: The Buddha's Challenge in Teaching the Dhamma

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
nowheat wrote:the inability to quite understand why that sense of self is a problem in the first place, and the inability to notice how it plays out as we go deeper and deeper -- the problem is, at base, caused by that underlying tendency blocking us from seeing accurately.

This would be why the Buddha points out that the people he knew were going to have a hard time understanding what he taught, because all our instincts at self preservation go against us seeing it.
:goodpost:

I like that. It explains the depth of the Dhamma without recourse to "complications" like intellectual analysis, philosophical inquiry, conceptual proliferation etc.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
User avatar
ground
Posts: 2591
Joined: Wed Nov 25, 2009 6:01 am

Re: The Buddha's Challenge in Teaching the Dhamma

Post by ground »

nowheat wrote:the inability to quite understand why that sense of self is a problem in the first place, and the inability to notice how it plays out as we go deeper and deeper -- the problem is, at base, caused by that underlying tendency blocking us from seeing accurately.
That is why right view is the forerunner.
User avatar
robertk
Posts: 5603
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 2:08 am

Re: The Buddha's Challenge in Teaching the Dhamma

Post by robertk »

mikenz66 wrote:As some further clarification, in case it sounds like I am making light of intellectual analysis of the suttas, I'd like to mention the example of Tiltbillings' discussion of translations of "the deathless", etc.
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 69#p160907" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... 2&#p159172" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The usual translations of Udana 8.3 go something like:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .irel.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
There is, bhikkhus, a not-born, a not-brought-to-being, a not-made, a not-conditioned. If, bhikkhus, there were no not-born, not-brought-to-being, not-made, not-conditioned, no escape would be discerned from what is born, brought-to-being, made, conditioned. But since there is a not-born, a not-brought-to-being, a not-made, a not-conditioned, therefore an escape is discerned from what is born, brought-to-being, made, conditioned.
or
"Verily, there is an Unborn, Unoriginated, Uncreated, Unformed. If there were not this Unborn, Unoriginated, Uncreated, Unformed, escape from the world of the born, the originated, the created, the formed, would not be possible"
This sounds awefully mysterious, whereas Tilt's translation:
"Monks, there is freedom from birth, freedom from
becoming, freedom from making, freedom from conditioning.
For, monks if there were not this freedom from birth, freedom from
becoming, freedom from making, freedom from conditioning,
then escape from that which is birth, becoming, making,
conditioning, would not be known here. But, monks, because there
is freedom from birth, freedom from becoming, freedom from
making, freedom from conditioning, therefore the escape from that
which is birth, becoming, making, conditioning is known."
is a reasonably straightforward statement that says, rather forcefully, that the goal is attainable.

Now, the intellectual rigor needed to be able to make that translation accurately is considerable, and certainly not a waste of time. Similarly with Ven. Nananada's many such analyses and clarifications in his seminars on Nibbana.



I am curious why you think tilts trnslation is correct.
User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 19932
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: Aotearoa, New Zealand

Re: The Buddha's Challenge in Teaching the Dhamma

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi Robert,
robertk wrote: I am curious why you think tilts trnslation is correct.
I'm not a Pali expert, so I rely on translators. Tilt's translation sounds plausible and my comment was on the basis of taking it seriously as a possibility. If you have an objection to his translation it would be interesting to explain it.

:anjali:
Mike
User avatar
robertk
Posts: 5603
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 2:08 am

Re: The Buddha's Challenge in Teaching the Dhamma

Post by robertk »

Please see my topic in the Classical section
User avatar
Alex123
Posts: 4035
Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2010 11:32 pm

Re: The Buddha's Challenge in Teaching the Dhamma

Post by Alex123 »

mikenz66 wrote:You mean, in English, the Dhamma is straightforward, not complicated?
:anjali:
Mike
My understanding is that Dhamma is simple, but not easy. It is very hard to realize.
User avatar
Alex123
Posts: 4035
Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2010 11:32 pm

Re: The Buddha's Challenge in Teaching the Dhamma

Post by Alex123 »

Hello Retro,

Few interesting points:
The Dhamma is:
1) deep, hard to see, hard to realize, peaceful, refined, beyond the scope of conjecture, subtle, to-be-experienced by the wise.
The reason for not understanding it is:
2) For a generation delighting in attachment, excited by attachment, enjoying attachment, this/that conditionality and dependent co-arising are hard to see.

Please note that the reason for difficulty of Dhamma is not because of some abstruse metaphysics but because we are attached to things. Also this/that conditionality and dependent origination is hard to see because of it.

Is dependent origination abstruse metaphysics? It starts with ignorance and ends with suffering. It seems to be more of pragmatic and soteriological rather than "In ultimate truth, things don't have any inherent existence and are fully empty".

Ignorance is defined as not knowing 4NT (dukkha, craving being origin of dukkha, cessation of craving is cessation of dukkha, and the path leading to it).

Dhamma is about letting go off all attachment which brings the cessation of suffering, and the drawbacks of attachment is hard to see.
User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 19932
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: Aotearoa, New Zealand

Re: The Buddha's Challenge in Teaching the Dhamma

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi Alex,
Alex123 wrote: Please note that the reason for difficulty of Dhamma is not because of some abstruse metaphysics but because we are attached to things. Also this/that conditionality and dependent origination is hard to see because of it.
Agree...
Alex123 wrote: Is dependent origination abstruse metaphysics? It starts with ignorance and ends with suffering. It seems to be more of pragmatic and soteriological rather than "In ultimate truth, things don't have any inherent existence and are fully empty".
Agree, and, based on my, admittedly limited, reading, discussion, and experience, I don't think that awakening is dependent on mastering obscure philosophical distinctions to do with whether or not there is a "reality" "out there", etc, etc.

:anjali:
Mike
Post Reply