"The Deathless" (amata)

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
Post Reply
User avatar
kirk5a
Posts: 1959
Joined: Thu Sep 23, 2010 1:51 pm

Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Post by kirk5a » Mon Mar 19, 2012 1:16 pm

tiltbillings wrote: In other words, one is freed from the conditioning of greed, hatred, and delusion.

As an awake individual one is no longer conditioned – one is unconditioned, asankhata --, by the volitional conditions of greed, hatred, and delusion.

[from earlier in this thread]
[Nibbana] refers to a person freed from greed, hatred, and delusion.
When you say that Nibbana refers to a person - do you mean that Nibbana refers to the 5 aggregates ?
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23044
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Post by tiltbillings » Mon Mar 19, 2012 1:47 pm

kirk5a wrote:
tiltbillings wrote: In other words, one is freed from the conditioning of greed, hatred, and delusion.

As an awake individual one is no longer conditioned – one is unconditioned, asankhata --, by the volitional conditions of greed, hatred, and delusion.

[from earlier in this thread]
[Nibbana] refers to a person freed from greed, hatred, and delusion.
When you say that Nibbana refers to a person - do you mean that Nibbana refers to the 5 aggregates ?
Is the nibbanized individual, a tathagata, defined by the khandhas? Is there something outside the khandhas that is the tathagata?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

User avatar
kirk5a
Posts: 1959
Joined: Thu Sep 23, 2010 1:51 pm

Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Post by kirk5a » Mon Mar 19, 2012 2:09 pm

tiltbillings wrote: Is the nibbanized individual, a tathagata, defined by the khandhas? Is there something outside the khandhas that is the tathagata?
How do you mean for us to understand this expression "the nibbanized individual" ? Can that expression be traced to the suttas somewhere?
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23044
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Post by tiltbillings » Mon Mar 19, 2012 2:20 pm

kirk5a wrote:
tiltbillings wrote: Is the nibbanized individual, a tathagata, defined by the khandhas? Is there something outside the khandhas that is the tathagata?
How do you mean for us to understand this expression "the nibbanized individual" ? Can that expression be traced to the suttas somewhere?
Yes.


http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... averb.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23044
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Post by tiltbillings » Mon Mar 19, 2012 7:20 pm

Lest this thread gets too fragmented, the abhidhamma discussion has been moved here:
http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=11820" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

User avatar
kirk5a
Posts: 1959
Joined: Thu Sep 23, 2010 1:51 pm

Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Post by kirk5a » Tue Mar 20, 2012 3:56 am

tiltbillings wrote:Yes.


http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... averb.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Ok what specifically there at that link are you referencing?
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23044
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Post by tiltbillings » Tue Mar 20, 2012 4:05 am

kirk5a wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Yes.


http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... averb.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Ok what specifically there at that link are you referencing?
Did you read it? It is rather straightforward.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

User avatar
kirk5a
Posts: 1959
Joined: Thu Sep 23, 2010 1:51 pm

Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Post by kirk5a » Tue Mar 20, 2012 4:14 am

tiltbillings wrote:Did you read it? It is rather straightforward.
Unestablished consciousness? Is rather straightforward? :D
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23044
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Post by tiltbillings » Tue Mar 20, 2012 4:48 am

kirk5a wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Did you read it? It is rather straightforward.
Unestablished consciousness? Is rather straightforward? :D
Is that all you got out of that essay?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

User avatar
kirk5a
Posts: 1959
Joined: Thu Sep 23, 2010 1:51 pm

Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Post by kirk5a » Tue Mar 20, 2012 5:31 am

tiltbillings wrote:Is that all you got out of that essay?
Ah, if only. That would surely be enough. But back to what you want me to get out of the essay. Which is?
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23044
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Post by tiltbillings » Tue Mar 20, 2012 5:43 am

kirk5a wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Is that all you got out of that essay?
Ah, if only. That would surely be enough. But back to what you want me to get out of the essay. Which is?
I really do not understand what it is that you do not understand.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23044
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Post by tiltbillings » Tue Mar 20, 2012 5:46 am

kirk5a wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Is that all you got out of that essay?
Ah, if only. That would surely be enough. But back to what you want me to get out of the essay. Which is?
Which is that one unbinds.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

User avatar
kirk5a
Posts: 1959
Joined: Thu Sep 23, 2010 1:51 pm

Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Post by kirk5a » Tue Mar 20, 2012 5:57 am

tiltbillings wrote:Which is that one unbinds.
via consciousness which is not dwelling upon form, feeling, fabrications, perceptions or consciousness.
Consciousness, thus unestablished, not proliferating, not performing any function, is released. Owing to its release, it is steady. Owing to its steadiness, it is contented. Owing to its contentment, it is not agitated. Not agitated, he (the monk) is totally unbound right within.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23044
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Post by tiltbillings » Tue Mar 20, 2012 7:08 am

kirk5a wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Which is that one unbinds.
via consciousness which is not dwelling upon form, feeling, fabrications, perceptions or consciousness.
Well, the point is that one is no longer conditioned by greed, hatred, and delusion. One is unbound -- nibbana-ized --, one is free of the conditioning of greed, hatred, and delusion.

  • "It is in this very fathom-long physical frame with its perceptions and mind, that, I declare, lies the world, and the arising of the world, and the cessation of the world, and the path leading to the cessation of the world." — SN 2.26


Keep in mind that this is the Four Noble Truth -- the whole of the Dhamma -- that is played out "in this very fathom-long physical frame with its perceptions and mind." No need for "an unborn" or "the Deathless" mysterious thingies here. We see, rather, the transformation of unbinding, the freedom from the conditioning that would impel us forward to birth and death and all that is in between.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 16476
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: Aotearoa, New Zealand

Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Post by mikenz66 » Tue Mar 20, 2012 7:52 am

I thought the essay was reasonably clear:
Ajahn Thanissaro wrote:Now that nirvana has become an English word, it should have its own English verb to convey the sense of "being unbound" as well. At present, we say that a person "reaches" nirvana or "enters" nirvana, implying that nibbana is a place where you can go. But nirvana is most emphatically not a place. It's realized only when the mind stops defining itself in terms of place: of here, or there, or between the two.
The Buddha wrote:"One neither fabricates nor mentally fashions for the sake of becoming or un-becoming. This being the case, one is not sustained by anything in the world (doesn't cling to anything in the world). Unsustained, one is not agitated. Unagitated, one is totally unbound right within. One discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.'
:anjali:
Mike

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: AgarikaJ, Baidu [Spider], Google [Bot], rightviewftw, Saoshun and 102 guests