the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

[daverupa]

Nothing is "in" nibbana; when something (e.g. a flame) goes out, there is nothing which is "in the out-ness".

[Dugu]

Nothing is "in" nibbana; when something (e.g. a flame) goes out, there is nothing which is "in the out-ness".

Yes, how may I rephrase my question so that it may be applied properly?

[daverupa]

It seems to me that nibbana is the cessation of greed, hatred, delusion, and that parinibbana is the final breakup of the aggregates - including vinnana, of course, which might be enough to address your question. One confusing thing might relate to understanding the vinnana of a living arahant: there is no way to identify an arahant with any of the aggregates at all, yet how can one account for the continuing function of the five aggregates-as-residue?

I've seen liberated consciousness described in various ways in the Suttas; I make the most sense of SN 22.55: "When that consciousness is unestablished, not coming to growth, nongenerative, it is liberated. By being liberated, it is steady; by being steady, it is content; by being content, he is not agitated. Being unagitated, he personally attains nibbana." This is Ven. Bodhi's translation; link goes to Ven. Thanissaro's.

Ultimately, arahants are called tathagata as they are simply "ones who are thus"; after parinibbana, not even this can be said.

[Nyana]

[Zom]

Or is nibbana also cessation of all forms of consciousness?

Quite interesting that nobody asks: Is nibbana is also a cessation of the body? Or - cessation of the feelings?

How wise was the Buddha when he spoke like this:

"Monks, an uninstructed run-of-the-mill person might grow disenchanted with this body composed of the four great elements, might grow dispassionate toward it, might gain release from it. Why is that? Because the growth & decline, the taking up & putting down of this body composed of the four great elements are apparent. Thus the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person might grow disenchanted, might grow dispassionate, might gain release there.

"But as for what's called 'mind,' 'intellect,' or 'consciousness,' the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person is unable to grow disenchanted with it, unable to grow dispassionate toward it, unable to gain release from it. Why is that? For a long time this has been relished, appropriated, and grasped by the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person as, 'This is me, this is my self, this is what I am.' Thus the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person is unable to grow disenchanted with it, unable to grow dispassionate toward it, unable to gain release from it.

[reflection]

There is no "in Nibbana".

[Bhikkhu Pesala]

Nibbāna is described as the cessation of perception and feeling, not as the cessation of consciousness. If there were no awareness while the Noble Ones were abiding in Fruition Consciousness (phallacitta), they would be no different to someone who is unconscious or fast asleep.

Both path consciousness (maggacitta) and fruition consciousness (phalacitta) are types of consciousness, not the absence of consciousness. Nibbāna cannot be seen, heard, smelt, tasted, or touched. However, it can be cognized by the mind.

See my article on What is Nibbāna?, which collects some key points from the Milinda Pañha.

[Zom]

Opinion of Ven. Sujato on nibbana: http://sujato.wordpress.com/2011/05/21/ ... t-vinnana/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[vinasp]

Hi Dugu,

Quote:
"Or is nibbana also cessation of all forms of consciousness?"

1. Do you mean nibbana for one still alive, or some supposed after-death state?

2. If you mean for one still living, why would anyone even ask this question?
Are you confused by certain passages in the Nikaya's?

Please provide more background, to help us understand the question.

Kind regards, Vincent.

[ground]

The way leading to the cessation of consciousness is just this Noble Eightfold Path

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .ntbb.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Now ... is right view right?

Kind regards

[Dugu]

Hi Dugu,

1. Do you mean nibbana for one still alive, or some supposed after-death state?

I suppose my question refers more to after-death state.

[vinasp]

Hi Dugu,

Quote:

"I suppose my question refers more to after-death state."

We are all, of course, free to believe whatever we wish, so I expect that
you will receive a wide range of answers to your question. Many forum
members seem to be mixing different Buddhist traditions. But, here is the
opinion of a modern writer from within the Theravada tradition.

From: What the Buddha taught, by Walpola Rahula - online version - Link:

http://www.quangduc.com/English/basic/6 ... ht-04.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"Some popular inaccurately phrased expressions like ‘The Buddha entered into Nirvāna or Parinirvāna after his death’ have given rise to many imaginary speculations about Nirvāna. [22]The moment you hear the phrase that ‘the Buddha entered into Nirvāna or Parinirvāna’, you take Nirvāna to be a state, or a realm, or a position in which there is some sort of existence, and try to imagine it in terms of the senses of the word ‘existence’ as it is known to you. This popular expression ‘entered into Nirvāna’ has no equivalent in the original texts. There is no such thing as ‘entering into Nirvāna after death’. There is a word parinibbuto used to denote the death of the Buddha or an Arahant who has realized Nirvāna, but it does not mean ‘entering into Nirvāna’. Parinibbuto simply mean ‘fully blown out’ or ‘fully extinct’, because the Buddha or an Arahant has no re-existence after his death."

------------------------------ End of Quotation ------------------------

I am not sure that I agree with this myself, but it is probably close to
the official position of Theravada ( if there is one).

For myself, I am happy to allow these questions to remain a mystery which
is beyond my capacity to understand.

Kind regards, Vincent.

[Dugu]

I am not sure that I agree with this myself, but it is probably close to
the official position of Theravada ( if there is one).

For myself, I am happy to allow these questions to remain a mystery which
is beyond my capacity to understand.

Kind regards, Vincent.

Thanks Vincent. This whole thread has given me something to ponder about.

[Virgo]

Hi Dugu,

1. Do you mean nibbana for one still alive, or some supposed after-death state?

I suppose my question refers more to after-death state.

After the final death (parinibbana), there are no more conditions for nama to arise (or rupa), so there is no body, and no consciousness, no perception, etc. -- a process is over.

Kevin

[Nyana]

Nibbāna is described as the cessation of perception and feeling, not as the cessation of consciousness. If there were no awareness while the Noble Ones were abiding in Fruition Consciousness (phallacitta), they would be no different to someone who is unconscious or fast asleep.

FTR the noble path and fruition attainments occur with both concomitant perception and feeling. Abhidhammatthasaṅgaha:

• 1. The First Jhāna Sotāpatti Path-consciousness together with initial application, sustained application, joy, happiness, and one-pointedness,
  2. The Second Jhāna Sotāpatti Path-consciousness together with sustained application, joy, happiness, and one-pointedness,
  3. The Third Jhāna Sotāpatti Path-consciousness together with joy, happiness, and one-pointedness,
  4. The Fourth Jhāna Sotāpatti Path-consciousness together with happiness and one-pointedness,
  5. The Fifth Jhāna Sotāpatti Path-consciousness together with equanimity and one-pointedness.
  
  These are the five types of Sotāpatti Path-consciousness.
  
  So are the Sakadāgāmī Path-consciousness, Anāgāmī Path-consciousness, and Arahatta Path-consciousness, making exactly twenty classes of consciousness. Similarly there are twenty classes of Fruit-consciousness. Thus there are forty types of supra mundane consciousness.

Also, in keeping with the Kathāvatthu, the Visuddhimagga maintains that the cessation of apperception and feeling, which is also called the cessation attainment (nirodhasamāpatti) is neither supramundane nor not-conditioned (asaṅkhata). Visuddhimagga 23.52:

• As to the question: Is the attainment of cessation formed or unformed, etc.? It is not classifiable as formed or unformed, mundane or supramundane. Why? Because it has no individual essence. But since it comes to be attained by one who attains it, it is therefore permissible to say that it is produced, not unproduced.