"The Deathless" (amata)

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Zom
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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Post by Zom » Fri Nov 25, 2011 10:44 am

But what is actually being perceived at that moment?
Seems like some sort of existing reality apart from this world, that world, ect..

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tiltbillings
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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Post by tiltbillings » Fri Nov 25, 2011 10:52 am

Zom wrote:
But what is actually being perceived at that moment?
Seems like some sort of existing reality apart from this world, that world, ect..
Probably not, otherwise you are going to end up a Hindu.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Post by Zom » Fri Nov 25, 2011 11:29 am

If not - what then? ,)
In the sutta it is said quite directly: "perceives something that is not this world, that world, ect.."

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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Post by Sylvester » Fri Nov 25, 2011 12:39 pm

tiltbillings wrote:The following is not Rune Johansson's translation; it is mine, ...
For violating your droit de paternité so shamefully, I offer 100 strokes as penance.

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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Post by chownah » Fri Nov 25, 2011 12:54 pm

Zom wrote:And how whould you explain this sutta?

"Any consciousness by which one describing the Tathagata would describe him: That the Tathagata has abandoned, its root destroyed, made like a palmyra stump, deprived of the conditions of development, not destined for future arising. Freed from the classification of consciousness, great king, the Tathagata is deep, boundless, hard to fathom, like the ocean. 'The Tathagata exists after death' doesn't apply. 'The Tathagata doesn't exist after death doesn't apply. 'The Tathagata both exists and doesn't exist after death' doesn't apply. 'The Tathagata neither exists nor doesn't exist after death' doesn't apply."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

?
Trying to make sense of this is only difficult if you cling to your views of an "external" "real" "world". If you cling to your view of The All being all that there is then it makes perfect sense.....I guess.....
chownah

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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Post by Paññāsikhara » Fri Nov 25, 2011 1:07 pm

In passing, it may be worth noting that Pali, Sanskrit etc., have neither articles such as "the" or "a", nor do they have Capital Letters.
While rather innocuous, these do have significance to discerning readers of the English language.

Moreover, the Indic prefix "a-" can be read as several types of compound, and they are not all equal.

~~ Huifeng
My recently moved Blog, containing some of my writings on the Buddha Dhamma, as well as a number of translations from classical Buddhist texts and modern authors, liturgy, etc.: Huifeng's Prajnacara Blog.

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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by tiltbillings » Wed Mar 14, 2012 12:22 am

kirk5a wrote: I am curious to know whether a poster who proclaims views about "the Deathless" actually knows and sees the Deathless for him/herself or whether it's rooted in mere reading, thinking, and reasoning.
Not to worry. There is no "the Deathless" to know or see.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by retrofuturist » Wed Mar 14, 2012 12:34 am

Greetings,
tiltbillings wrote:Not to worry. There is no "the Deathless" to know or see.
And to save us going around in circles...

"The Deathless" (amata)
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=10569" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by nowheat » Wed Mar 14, 2012 12:35 am

retrofuturist wrote:For what it's worth, I found what you said to be totally in accord with the Dhamma of the Buddha.
That's of significant value, thanks.

tiltbillings wrote:Not to worry. There is no "the Deathless" to know or see.
How do you know this? Just curious. My temptation is to tease and say that since you have not known or seen the Deathless you know and see that there is none, but the joke could be too easily mistaken for me being snide. I would not be at all surprised if you had experienced the deathless, but just weren't aware that what you experiencing was it, just like people experience dukkha all the time without knowing what it is, what causes it (&c).

:namaste:

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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Prasadachitta » Wed Mar 14, 2012 12:36 am

tiltbillings wrote:
kirk5a wrote: I am curious to know whether a poster who proclaims views about "the Deathless" actually knows and sees the Deathless for him/herself or whether it's rooted in mere reading, thinking, and reasoning.
Not to worry. There is no "the Deathless" to know or see.


:jawdrop: :cry: :computerproblem:
"Beautifully taught is the Lord's Dhamma, immediately apparent, timeless, of the nature of a personal invitation, progressive, to be attained by the wise, each for himself." Anguttara Nikaya V.332

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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by kirk5a » Wed Mar 14, 2012 12:39 am

tiltbillings wrote:
kirk5a wrote: I am curious to know whether a poster who proclaims views about "the Deathless" actually knows and sees the Deathless for him/herself or whether it's rooted in mere reading, thinking, and reasoning.
Not to worry. There is no "the Deathless" to know or see.
Another proclaimer. What is this, Karaoke for the unawakened? But ok, in the interest of safeguarding the truth, since I don't know anything about you, tell us, proclaimer, based on what, do you say that? Your pet translation of Iti 43? You better be relying on something other than that, if you're going to be so bold. Like say - your actual awakening. Otherwise - pshaw with your statement.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

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tiltbillings
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by tiltbillings » Wed Mar 14, 2012 12:52 am

kirk5a wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
kirk5a wrote: I am curious to know whether a poster who proclaims views about "the Deathless" actually knows and sees the Deathless for him/herself or whether it's rooted in mere reading, thinking, and reasoning.
Not to worry. There is no "the Deathless" to know or see.
Another proclaimer.
Not at all. "The Deathless" is just bad translation of the Pali.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by kirk5a » Wed Mar 14, 2012 12:56 am

tiltbillings wrote:Not at all. "The Deathless" is just bad translation of the Pali.
Bah.
Open are the doors to the Deathless
to those with ears.
Let them show their conviction.
Perceiving trouble, O Brahma,
I did not tell people the refined,
sublime Dhamma.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

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tiltbillings
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by tiltbillings » Wed Mar 14, 2012 1:03 am

kirk5a wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Not at all. "The Deathless" is just bad translation of the Pali.
Bah.
That is one of the less articulate responses I have seen in a while.
Open are the doors to the Deathless
to those with ears.
Let them show their conviction.
Perceiving trouble, O Brahma,
I did not tell people the refined,
sublime Dhamma.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
A bad translation from the Pali
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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tiltbillings
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by tiltbillings » Wed Mar 14, 2012 1:30 am

kirk5a wrote:
nowheat wrote: I am not talking about having achieved some ... Release From Death.
Well then you can't say you know what the Buddha meant by "Released" then, can you.
Well, I suppose since one is no longer reborn, one no longer dies. No point in making this complicated.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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