Rarely mentioned criteria of the 1st jhana

The cultivation of calm or tranquility and the development of concentration
ignobleone
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Re: Rarely mentioned criteria of the 1st jhana

Post by ignobleone » Fri Mar 09, 2012 3:06 am

Zom wrote: No, because according to SN 48.40 (and, btw, all standard sutta formulas) in the first jhana you feel pleasant bodily sensation. So there is, at least, tactile perception in the 1st jhana. Not only "the mind" as some teachers say.
I want to read SN 48.40 but it's not available at accesstoinsight.org. I couldn't find it from google either. Can you please provide the link to any english version?
Would you mind to give some example of pleasant bodily sensation? Examples can help in understanding what you mean by pleasant bodily sensation. If sense-based perception exists in the 1st jhana, then you might have different interpretation of kāmasaññā. What do you think kāmasaññā means?

ignobleone
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Re: Rarely mentioned criteria of the 1st jhana

Post by ignobleone » Fri Mar 09, 2012 3:18 am

robertk wrote:Impossible to experience bodily feeling in jhana.
robertk wrote:any insight happens after leaving the jhana. never while in jhana
Would you please provide any Sutta reference for each of your opinion? Because this thread is in "Mental Cultivation in the Sutta Pitaka" discussion. Or at least provide some explanation.
Thanks.

ignobleone
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Re: Rarely mentioned criteria of the 1st jhana

Post by ignobleone » Fri Mar 09, 2012 3:54 am

Dmytro wrote:Hi,
ignobleone wrote: 1) kāmasaññā ceases, as mentioned in Anupubbanirodha Sutta (AN 9.31) http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
It depends on the translation of kāmasaññā. I believe it means kāma-based perception.
This is explained in more detail in Potthapada sutta:

"Quite withdrawn from sensual pleasures, withdrawn from unskillful mental qualities, the monk enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. His earlier perception of sensuality ceases, and on that occasion there is a perception of a refined truth of rapture & pleasure born of seclusion. On that occasion he is one who is percipient of a refined truth of rapture & pleasure born of seclusion. And thus it is that with training one perception arises and with training another perception ceases.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Metta.
Hi Dmytro,
Anupubbanirodha Sutta's content is kinda summary, it's much shorter than Potthapada sutta.
Btw, DN 9 is my favorite (as I wrote in the thread: http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=9080" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;) IMO since it's a sutta which contains the best explanation of what jhana is all about. Jhana is "with training one perception arises and with training another perception ceases."
:anjali:

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marc108
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Re: Rarely mentioned criteria of the 1st jhana

Post by marc108 » Fri Mar 09, 2012 4:05 pm

robertk wrote:Impossible to experience bodily feeling in jhana.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"There was the case where Sariputta — quite secluded from sensuality, secluded from unskillful qualities — entered & remained in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born of seclusion, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. Whatever qualities there are in the first jhana — directed thought, evaluation, rapture, pleasure, singleness of mind, contact, feeling, perception, intention, consciousness,[2] desire, decision, persistence, mindfulness, equanimity, & attention — he ferreted them out one after another. Known to him they arose, known to him they remained, known to him they subsided. He discerned, 'So this is how these qualities, not having been, come into play. Having been, they vanish.' He remained unattracted & unrepelled with regard to those qualities, independent, detached, released, dissociated, with an awareness rid of barriers. He discerned that 'There is a further escape,' and pursuing it there really was for him
you may also enjoy this series of talks:
http://www.audiodharma.org/series/135/talk/1854/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Samadhi: Exploring the Range of Teachings and Controversies on Concentration & Jhana
"It's easy for us to connect with what's wrong with us... and not so easy to feel into, or to allow us, to connect with what's right and what's good in us."

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Zom
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Re: Rarely mentioned criteria of the 1st jhana

Post by Zom » Sat Mar 10, 2012 7:32 am

I want to read SN 48.40 but it's not available at accesstoinsight.org. I couldn't find it from google either. Can you please provide the link to any english version? Would you mind to give some example of pleasant bodily sensation? Examples can help in understanding what you mean by pleasant bodily sensation.
No link. But Buddha says there very interesting thing. He says about 5 feelings:

1. Pleasant feeling experienced by bodily contact
2. Unpleasant feeling experienced by bodily contact
3. Pleasant feeling experienced by mind contact
4. Unpleasant feeling experienced by mind contact
5. Neither-pleasant-nor-unpleasant feeling experienced by bodily or mind contact

Then he says that:

Feeling №2 totally ceases in the 1st jhana
Feeling №4 totally ceases in the 2nd jhana
Feeling №1 totally ceases in the 3rd jhana
Feeling №3 totally ceases in the 4st jhana
Feeling №5 totally ceases in the nirodha-samapatti (that is also nibbana, where "there is nothing felt at all")

So, in the 1st jhana feeling №2 completely ceases (that is why there is no bodily pains in the 1st jhana and you can sit in meditation for hours). But, as we see, he does not say that pleasant bodily feeling ceases also. No, instead he says, that pleasant bodily feeling (feeling №1) ceases in the 3rd jhana. So, as we see, while in the first and second jhanas you experience pleasant bodily feelings. However, even in the 3rd jhana there, as it seems, there is still a bodily feeling - that is №5. It seems such kind of bodily feeling ceases only in arupa-jhanas. While such kind of mental feeling ceases only in nirodha-samapatti.
If sense-based perception exists in the 1st jhana, then you might have different interpretation of kāmasaññā. What do you think kāmasaññā means?
I think this is a perception of kama-nimittas. That is, for example, while seating in such 1st jhana meditation, this is impossible that some fantasy about sensuality will appear. While not in jhana some thought or imagination or "picture" may pop up that will cause sensual craving to arise immidiately. That is a trigger for one of the hindraces. Anf in the 1st jhana you have no such triggers.

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Dmytro
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Re: Rarely mentioned criteria of the 1st jhana

Post by Dmytro » Sat Mar 10, 2012 8:01 am

Hi,
ignobleone wrote: If sense-based perception exists in the 1st jhana, then you might have different interpretation of kāmasaññā. What do you think kāmasaññā means?
It's just the selective recognition (saññā) connected with sensual desire (kāma), as explained in the Atthakatha:

Kāmapaṭisaṃyuttā saññā kāmasaññā. Byāpādapaṭisaṃyuttā saññā byāpādasaññā. Vihiṃsāpaṭisaṃyuttā saññā vihiṃsāsaññā.

Metta, Dmytro

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