Or Ven. S. has geared his theses to promote a pro-jhāna standpoint. This was not the sole viewpoint of Ajahn Brahm as his mentor, but of the TFT Ajahn Chah group in general.Brizzy wrote:As a personal sentiment, it strikes me as poignant that the sutta I feel needs to be set aside was at one time believed by me to be the most important sutta and contained all the Buddha's teachings. Now it strikes me as illogical in its framework and geared to promote doctrines that were formed much later.
The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?
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Re: The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?
“I say, beware of all enterprises that require new clothes, and not rather a new wearer of clothes.” – Henry David Thoreau, Walden, 1854
Secure your own mask before assisting others. – NORTHWEST AIRLINES (Pre-Flight Instruction)
A Handful of Leaves
Secure your own mask before assisting others. – NORTHWEST AIRLINES (Pre-Flight Instruction)
A Handful of Leaves
Re: The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?
Actually, it was more a personal conclusion. Regardless of whether Ven Sujato has got his deductions right or wrong. Ven Sujato is an interesting character, there is much I agree with him about and at the same time there is a lot that I disagree with.ancientbuddhism wrote:Or Ven. S. has geared his theses to promote a pro-jhāna standpoint. This was not the sole viewpoint of Ajahn Brahm as his mentor, but of the TFT Ajahn Chah group in general.Brizzy wrote:As a personal sentiment, it strikes me as poignant that the sutta I feel needs to be set aside was at one time believed by me to be the most important sutta and contained all the Buddha's teachings. Now it strikes me as illogical in its framework and geared to promote doctrines that were formed much later.
As regards the Satipatthana sutta, I have never seen any clear reasoning of why the sutta is set out like it is. It seems disorganised and several repeated sections make no sense and seem agenda driven.
Metta
Ignorance is an intentional act.
Re: The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?
I went back and looked at Ven Sujato's analysis, and it is interesting to see how such (most?) suttas were clearly created over time.
However, my overall feeling after all that analysis is: "So what?"
For the approaches I'm most familiar with that are based to a large extent on the Satipatthana Sutta, such as the Mahasi approach and the approach of many the Ajahn Chah students (Vens Brahm and Sujato have a rather different approach to the other Ajahn Chah students I'm familiar with), a few variations here and there are of no particular significance. Anything that may have been added seems to be well-represented in dozens of other suttas and, in any case, those approaches already make use of material from other suttas (such as dependent origination suttas).
I guess if one comes to the suttas with the idea that they contain detailed specific instructions and/or that it is possible to reconstruct a "direct from the Buddha's lips" canon, one might be concerned about the variations. If one sees them as guidelines to be fleshed out by experience in a living tradition there is much less cause for concern.
Mike
However, my overall feeling after all that analysis is: "So what?"
For the approaches I'm most familiar with that are based to a large extent on the Satipatthana Sutta, such as the Mahasi approach and the approach of many the Ajahn Chah students (Vens Brahm and Sujato have a rather different approach to the other Ajahn Chah students I'm familiar with), a few variations here and there are of no particular significance. Anything that may have been added seems to be well-represented in dozens of other suttas and, in any case, those approaches already make use of material from other suttas (such as dependent origination suttas).
I guess if one comes to the suttas with the idea that they contain detailed specific instructions and/or that it is possible to reconstruct a "direct from the Buddha's lips" canon, one might be concerned about the variations. If one sees them as guidelines to be fleshed out by experience in a living tradition there is much less cause for concern.
Mike
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Re: The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?
If Ven. Sujato was interested in this study solely on his own, it is remarkable how much is resonates with the TFT pro-jhāna point of view. No matter to me really.Brizzy wrote:Actually, it was more a personal conclusion. Regardless of whether Ven Sujato has got his deductions right or wrong. Ven Sujato is an interesting character, there is much I agree with him about and at the same time there is a lot that I disagree with.ancientbuddhism wrote:Or Ven. S. has geared his theses to promote a pro-jhāna standpoint. This was not the sole viewpoint of Ajahn Brahm as his mentor, but of the TFT Ajahn Chah group in general.Brizzy wrote:As a personal sentiment, it strikes me as poignant that the sutta I feel needs to be set aside was at one time believed by me to be the most important sutta and contained all the Buddha's teachings. Now it strikes me as illogical in its framework and geared to promote doctrines that were formed much later.
As regards the Satipatthana sutta, I have never seen any clear reasoning of why the sutta is set out like it is. It seems disorganised and several repeated sections make no sense and seem agenda driven.
On the GIST (all pun intended) of the matter, it is quite possible that some of the suttas in the Dīgha and Majjhima Nikāyas represent more of a mosaic of ideas, possibly not all of which were the Buddha’s or his direct followers. And that some ideas developed over time, such as Satipaṭṭhāna as an accretion from Kāyagatāsati. This needn’t take anything away from their value for us, even if parts were put into the mouth of the Buddha by others.
All in all Sujato has made some interesting points and I still re-read sections of it. Of particular interest to me is his Satipaṭṭhāna Mūla reconstruction, which is making an honest academic attempt to resolve problems that some of us may bulk at as cherry-picking.
“I say, beware of all enterprises that require new clothes, and not rather a new wearer of clothes.” – Henry David Thoreau, Walden, 1854
Secure your own mask before assisting others. – NORTHWEST AIRLINES (Pre-Flight Instruction)
A Handful of Leaves
Secure your own mask before assisting others. – NORTHWEST AIRLINES (Pre-Flight Instruction)
A Handful of Leaves
Re: The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?
There is an interesting Insight Journal article here:
http://www.dharma.org/bcbs/Pages/insight_journal.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Specifically:
Did the Buddha Teach Satipatthāna? by Chip Hartranft
http://www.dharma.org/bcbs/Pages/docume ... tranft.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
As well as the usual arguments of synthesis in the Satipatthana Sutta he argues that the Satipatthana section of the Anapanasati Sutta is also a later addition:
Mike
http://www.dharma.org/bcbs/Pages/insight_journal.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Specifically:
Did the Buddha Teach Satipatthāna? by Chip Hartranft
http://www.dharma.org/bcbs/Pages/docume ... tranft.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
As well as the usual arguments of synthesis in the Satipatthana Sutta he argues that the Satipatthana section of the Anapanasati Sutta is also a later addition:
When the Buddha or his
followers listed the five faculties and strengths,
samādhi always preceded paññā—wisdom—and
was preceded by sati—mindfulness. And in fact,
there was a conscious effort either by the Buddha
or more probably by later followers to equate the
four satipatthānas—body, feeling tone, qualities of
consciousness, and causal mental states—with
the four tetrads of ānāpānasati (mindfulness of
breathing), which in practical terms is kind of a
stretch.
They don’t match up?
It is not at all clear that the Buddha himself claimed
a perfect one-to-one correspondence between the
four tetrads and the four satipatthānas. It seems more
likely to me that later scholastic monastics—perhaps
without much personal grounding in practice—
might have tried to correlate them because they
rightly supposed that samādhi and satipatthāna
were related, and the fourfold structures invited
comparison.
One of the most intriguing oddities that is called
into question as one drills down into the earliest
strata of teachings is this effort to not just match up
but synonymize the tetrads with satipatthāna, most
famously in the Ānāpānasati Sutta. Apart from that
instance in the Majjhima Nikāya, though, I find
only a single similar passage, repeated four times, in
the entire Samyutta Nikāya, and it appears to be the
source rather than any sort of confirmation for this
attempt to align the two. Nonetheless, even if the
attempt is not very convincing, it reflects the fact
that in teachings both early and late, the Buddha’s
mindfulness generally involves the breath.
Mike
Re: The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?
One will also notice that certain passages are not found elsewhere in the Pāli—for example, the simile where a yogi sensing each breathflow’s length is compared to a turner who knows the duration of each pass on the lathe. Singularity or even oddity can suggest authenticity, of course, but when one looks for the same simile in a different canon’s recension—for example, the Sarvāstivādan Smrti-upasthāna Sūtra—it is absent, suggesting that the image was a Theravādan inspiration.
- "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.
"And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
Re: The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?
Yes, the people who constructed the various suttas, such as the Satipatthana and Anapanasati Suttas, over a period of time were inspired, weren't they?
Lucky for us...
Mike
Lucky for us...
Mike
Re: The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?
Well, other thoughts arise for me in this case:
If the Buddha taught via this simile, why did other schools drop it?
If the Buddha did not teach via this simile, why not?
Was there another simile? Was it replaced by this one?
etc.
Perhaps the most bothersome issue:
Why is this simile nowhere in the Anapanasati Samyutta?
If the Buddha taught via this simile, why did other schools drop it?
If the Buddha did not teach via this simile, why not?
Was there another simile? Was it replaced by this one?
etc.
Perhaps the most bothersome issue:
Why is this simile nowhere in the Anapanasati Samyutta?
- "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.
"And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?
And your point is?daverupa wrote:Well, other thoughts arise for me in this case:
If the Buddha taught via this simile, why did other schools drop it?
If the Buddha did not teach via this simile, why not?
Was there another simile? Was it replaced by this one?
etc.
Perhaps the most bothersome issue:
Why is this simile nowhere in the Anapanasati Samyutta?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Re: The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?
Hi Dave,
And the importance of this is what?
As I said, it seems clear that every moderately long sutta, including the Anapanasati, Satipatthana, and so on, has been added to.
I guess one's reaction to this uncertainty depends on whether one thinks that the ancients who assembled the teachings, or the modern commentators/teachers who still teach and discuss them, knew/know what they were/are talking about. Should I think that a simile added by an ancient teacher is less useful to me than commentary by modern scholars? Does it make any difference to how I should practice?
Is it possible to figure out exactly what is original? Is any of it original?
Mike
And the importance of this is what?
As I said, it seems clear that every moderately long sutta, including the Anapanasati, Satipatthana, and so on, has been added to.
I guess one's reaction to this uncertainty depends on whether one thinks that the ancients who assembled the teachings, or the modern commentators/teachers who still teach and discuss them, knew/know what they were/are talking about. Should I think that a simile added by an ancient teacher is less useful to me than commentary by modern scholars? Does it make any difference to how I should practice?
Is it possible to figure out exactly what is original? Is any of it original?
Mike
Re: The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?
tiltbillings wrote:And your point is?
mikenz66 wrote:And the importance of this is what?
Q: What drives your interest in the authenticity of the canonical meditation instructions?
A: The main intention is to understand as clearly as possible what the Buddha thought and taught, because what he offered had only one purpose: to come to the end of dukkha, liberating heart and mind. He appears to have taught that this potential—presumably the ultimate goal of personhood—will only be realized by one who fully develops body and mind to see things as they are. The central axis of this cultivation is, of course, meditation, so even a little more clarity about how to practice might be of enormous value.
- "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.
"And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
Re: The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?
OK, that' sounds reasonable but since it's likely that every sutta is a "forgery" (in the sense of the OP), I'm not confident that it's actually possible to figure out the exact details of the Buddha taught.
Mike
Mike
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Re: The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?
I wonder if, as our author suggests, the Buddha actually taught prāna practice:mikenz66 wrote:OK, that' sounds reasonable but since it's likely that every sutta is a "forgery" (in the sense of the OP), I'm not confident that it's actually possible to figure out the exact details of the Buddha taught.
Mike
- For many yogis, this can be done by “yoking” to the prāna
or “aliveness” of the body, which the Buddha and
his contemporaries seem to have related both to
respiration and to sensation in general.
...
Second, staying connected to the life force,
p(r)āna,
...
First of all, meditation might begin for most as a
simpler, more organic, energy-based kind of yoga.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
- tiltbillings
- Posts: 23046
- Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am
Re: The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?
Interestingly, the Satipatthana Sutta fits that bill.daverupa wrote:Q: What drives your interest in the authenticity of the canonical meditation instructions?
A: The main intention is to understand as clearly as possible what the Buddha thought and taught, because what he offered had only one purpose: to come to the end of dukkha, liberating heart and mind. He appears to have taught that this potential—presumably the ultimate goal of personhood—will only be realized by one who fully develops body and mind to see things as they are. The central axis of this cultivation is, of course, meditation, so even a little more clarity about how to practice might be of enormous value.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Re: The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?
It depends on whether you have a "Nikayas half empty" or "Nikayas half full" attitude.tiltbillings wrote:... if we take it seriously, then where and how do we start drawing the line as to what to accept and what to reject among the suttas in terms of actual practice?
If the aim of such analysis is to merely discredit anything that can not be definitively shown to have came out of the Buddha's mouth, I'm not sure that is particularly practical, beneficial, or in line with suttas extorting us to "see for ourselves" (if those are not fakes...).
To me, a better response would be to acknowledge that our knowledge of the historical Dhamma will always be imperfect, and that the various ideas that may or may not have been injected by ancient and modern compilers and commentators should be carefully examined for their usefulness.
Mike