the great atheism debate

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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tiltbillings
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Re: Buddhist response to Western ontology

Post by tiltbillings »

Kim O'Hara wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:... you seem intent on trying cram the Buddha's teaching into a Catholic framewoek. It is not working.
... but it does bring up some interesting points every now and then.
:namaste:
Kim
Sure, but interestingly it covers much the same ground that Buddhists covered in India when dealing with the Brahmanical points of view. While the garb may be different, the fundamentals of the theistic claim made here are not.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: Buddhist response to Western ontology

Post by Kim OHara »

contemplans wrote:I have prepared this summary of a related Thomist argument to the OP's argument for the sake of the discussion. I found it is probably more related to Buddhism (causality, process) then the one given by the OP (being itself). The Buddha teaches causation, so this seems to be native ground. Let's discuss its content. The Buddha never seemed to get beyond the idea of infinite regress. If that is not the case, then how can we explain him not getting beyond it, or where is the error in logic below?
Hello, contemplans,
Keeping it very simple here:
Your Western ontology avoids the infinite regress by saying there must be a first cause and declaring that it exists.
Buddhism, as far as I understand it, avoids the need for a first cause by saying that the infinite regress is fine - that the universe has always existed and has always (really always) just trundled along, from cause to effect to cause to effect.
In terms of consistency, I don't see than either one has the advantage over the other.

A third approach to origins would be the scientific one which currently holds that the universe popped into existence some 13.7 billion years ago and that neither space nor time existed before that happened so any questions about 'before' are meaningless.
Here again we can either choose to accept something we can't really understand (no space and no time? infinite densities and temperatures?) or invent a First Cause that that we do understand and say, 'The universe was created by God.' Of the two, I prefer the first - especially if the First Cause we invent then has to run the whole shebang forever after.

:namaste:
Kim
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tiltbillings
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Re: Buddhist response to Western ontology

Post by tiltbillings »

mikenz66 wrote:SN 12.15 Kaccayanagotta Sutta is often quoted in discussions about "reality". However, this thread: http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=11269" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; contains a variety of commentary, from Buddhaghosa to Nananada, which suggests that its message has more to do with avoiding eternalism and annihilationism than whether or not anything "exists".
Eternalism and annihilationism are grounded in the assumptions of being and non-being, is/is not.

This text, the Kaccayanagotta Sutta, is another of the Buddha's responding to Brahmanical notions, and in this case the very fundamental āsti - nāsti, is - is not, being - not-being. Buddhism was (is) seen as a nāsti, atheistic point of veiw, and also as a nasty point of view, by the Brahmins as in the Gita, chapter XVI, 8 - 9:
  • 'The universe," they say, "is without truth [asat that which is open to destruction and change, without an atman/brahman, the Absolute within each of us],"
    Without basis/unstable [having no solid ground apratis.t.ham], without a God;
    Brought about by a mutual union,
    How else? It is caused by lust alone.'


    Holding this view,
    These men of lost souls, of small intelligence,
    And of cruel actions, come forth as enemies
    Of the world for it destruction.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: Buddhist response to Western ontology

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Tilt,

:goodpost:

Thanks also for quoting the Brahmin scripture too, which provide good context regarding what the Buddha was talking about.

Because it also seems very relevant here, I'll copy and paste (and tweak slightly) a post I made in the Fabrication topic.... http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 60#p172531" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I've just thought of a comparable situation that might help make the above distinction clearer...

Think of the Buddha's teaching of anatta, (not-self) which says that the five aggregates and six-sense-sphere are not-self. Not once does the Buddha make the ontological declaration that "atman doesn't exist"*. When Thanissaro Bhikkhu explains this point and shows it's not an ontological teaching, some Theravadins who cling to an ontological belief in the non-existence of atman/soul hurl all manner of insult upon him because his comments do not affirm their pre-existing ontological bias. The teaching of anatta is most valuable as a corrective to those whose ontological biases (i.e. belief or disbelief in atta or atman) cause them to incorrectly discern/regard loka in the present moment.

Now think of the Buddha's teaching of dependent origination, which says that all experience other than nibbana is conditioned/formed/sankara. The Buddha doesn't affirm either ontological existence or non-existence. When Nanananda, Nanavira et.al. explain this point and show that dependent origination is not an ontological teaching, some Theravadins who cling to an ontological belief in existence, exude all manner of strange looks and accusations of obscurity, because their comments do not affirm their pre-existing ontological beliefs. The teaching of dependent origination is most valuable as a corrective to those whose ontological biases (i.e. existence or non-existence) cause them to incorrectly discern/regard loka in the present moment. Let's not kid ourselves either, that's true of all putthujjanas, and of sekhas who habitually still lapse into avijja, when not mindful. As Nanananda says, "We are not will­ing to accept that exis­tence is a per­ver­sion. Exis­tence is suf­fer­ing pre­cisely because it is a perversion.”... so I'm not just talking about one or two people, I'm talking about all of us here (unless the self-proclaimed arahants in the member poll are to be believed! :lol: ). Whether an individual wishes to strive to see that exis­tence is a per­ver­sion and put an end to suffering is up to them. The Buddha, Nanananda, Nanavira et.al. can only point the way... speaking for myself though, it is of paramount importance.

As dependent origination addresses and diagnoses the full gamut of ontological beliefs, it is rightly regarded as the most profound of the Buddha's teachings. Anatta, whilst not quite so profound, is still immensely valuable since so much of our preconceived ontological beliefs which give rise to clinging are rooted in notions of self (e.g. "I" and "mine"). So yes, paticcasamuppasa does address ontological biases in the form of belief and disbelief in the soul, and belief and disbelief about what happens to it at death... but that's not all it does. Because it talks about atthitā (exis­tence) and natthitā (non-existence), rather than sassatavada (eternalism) and ucchedavāda(annihilationism) it encompasses all ontological views/distortions, including but not restricted to the distortions of sassatavada and ucchedavāda, plus distortions attributable to belief or disbelief in God. Thus, it serves as a corrective against all distorting biases. That is why it is awesome. 8-) In the context of a "Buddhist response to Western ontology" it renders the need for such responses to make reference to God completely moot.

* - Why he refrains from doing so is quite obvious, if you think about it. If he did ontologically deny atman, he could not prove it, because to prove it he would have to explain something outside the all. Being unable to prove it, he would not be able to wedge people out of their deeply ingrained beliefs. Ditto with those who cling to views pertaining to God and his existence/non-existence. Therefore, the Buddha tries to get them to focus just on their experience/loka and logically demonstrate to them that nothing within that loka is atman. Now that is personally verifiable and onward leading... and that is how you get people to relinquish entrenched views in favour of something more liberating.
Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Buddhist response to Western ontology

Post by tiltbillings »

contemplans wrote: As for arguments against God, Buddhism really hasn't come up with any native arguments.
This deserves a revisit. In addition to the explicit and implicit arguments rejecting the idea of an omnipotent, omnipotent, permanent, independent, unique cause of the cosmos that are found in the suttas and have been quoted in this thread, numerous doctors of Buddhism during Buddhism's tenure in India have responded to the idea of an omnipotent, omnipotent, permanent, independent, unique cause of the cosmos and rejecting it, of course, but the most detailed would be that of Dharmakirti: http://ccbs.ntu.edu.tw/FULLTEXT/JR-PHIL/jackson.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; which makes the obvious case that our Christian friend here is wrong again.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: Buddhist response to Western ontology

Post by tiltbillings »

contemplans wrote:[Freser:] At least where the sheer existence of things is concerned, He and He alone is directly causing them at every instant. He is, as the Muslims say, “closer than the vein in your neck.”
He and He alone is directly causing them at every instant. Indeed. For example: Zyklon-B and the will to use it.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: Buddhist response to Western ontology

Post by contemplans »

tiltbillings wrote:
contemplans wrote:That sutta doesn't posit an ontology, it says, "We don't do ontology." See quote: "Avoiding these two extremes ...". Buddhism is quietistic in this regard, as it often is with philosophical questions. This is why I say it isn't a Buddhist subject.

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/realism/#8" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
As usual, your typical evangelical attempt to spin things. The sutta rejects ontology as being totally inadequate, thus something to avoid.

As for quietism:
  • Quietism has been erroneously compared to the Buddhist doctrine of Nirvana. . . . Quietism states that man's highest perfection consists of a self-annihilation, and subsequent absorption, of the soul into the Divine, even during the present life. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quietism_(Christian_philosophy" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;)[
[/list]Not really an appropriate characterisation of the Dhamma, but you seem intent on trying cram the Buddha's teaching into a Catholic framewoek. It is not working.
I am sorry that I didn't specify this, but the link I provided fills out what I said. One, that (most) quietists hold that ontology as being totally inadequate. And two, the quietism I am speaking about is referred to in the link. This is philophical quietism, a position between realism and idealism, which has nothing to do with the religious doctrine of quietism. I am sorry I wasn't more clear to you about that.

Kim O'Hara wrote:Hello, contemplans,
Keeping it very simple here:
Your Western ontology avoids the infinite regress by saying there must be a first cause and declaring that it exists.
Buddhism, as far as I understand it, avoids the need for a first cause by saying that the infinite regress is fine - that the universe has always existed and has always (really always) just trundled along, from cause to effect to cause to effect.
In terms of consistency, I don't see than either one has the advantage over the other.

A third approach to origins would be the scientific one which currently holds that the universe popped into existence some 13.7 billion years ago and that neither space nor time existed before that happened so any questions about 'before' are meaningless.
Here again we can either choose to accept something we can't really understand (no space and no time? infinite densities and temperatures?) or invent a First Cause that that we do understand and say, 'The universe was created by God.' Of the two, I prefer the first - especially if the First Cause we invent then has to run the whole shebang forever after.

:namaste:
Kim
All three need explanation. I have provided an explanation for one. What you state doesn't explain anything, though, but just makes statements.

tiltbillings wrote:
contemplans wrote: As for arguments against God, Buddhism really hasn't come up with any native arguments.
This deserves a revisit. In addition to the explicit and implicit arguments rejecting the idea of an omnipotent, omnipotent, permanent, independent, unique cause of the cosmos that are found in the suttas and have been quoted in this thread, numerous doctors of Buddhism during Buddhism's tenure in India have responded to the idea of an omnipotent, omnipotent, permanent, independent, unique cause of the cosmos and rejecting it, of course, but the most detailed would be that of Dharmakirti: http://ccbs.ntu.edu.tw/FULLTEXT/JR-PHIL/jackson.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; which makes the obvious case that our Christian friend here is wrong again.
Dharmakirti knows nothing of the Aristotelian nor the Thomists arguments. He doesn't even have the conception of hylomorphism to formulate the argument.
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Re: Buddhist response to Western ontology

Post by contemplans »

tiltbillings wrote:
contemplans wrote:[Freser:] At least where the sheer existence of things is concerned, He and He alone is directly causing them at every instant. He is, as the Muslims say, “closer than the vein in your neck.”
He and He alone is directly causing them at every instant. Indeed. For example: Zyklon-B and the will to use it.
That is not an argument. :shrug:
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Re: Buddhist response to Western ontology

Post by Kim OHara »

tiltbillings wrote:
contemplans wrote:[Freser:] At least where the sheer existence of things is concerned, He and He alone is directly causing them at every instant. He is, as the Muslims say, “closer than the vein in your neck.”
He and He alone is directly causing them at every instant. Indeed. For example: Zyklon-B and the will to use it.
I hate to have to tell you this, Tilt, but according to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_l ... _and_usage" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; you have lost the debate.
:toilet:

:namaste:
Kim
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Re: Buddhist response to Western ontology

Post by Cittasanto »

has the Buddhist response been given yet? :rofl:
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
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Re: Buddhist response to Western ontology

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,

:lol:

According to Godwin, that is correct.

But Tilt is right to want to point out that if there was an omnipotent God, everything, including the greatest atrocities of mankind, is His fault. And if that is true, it says a lot about Him, doesn't it?

Be careful what you attribute omniscience and omnipotence to.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Atheist Quotes

Post by DNS »

Some quotes from the Buddha in Pali Canon and some other Buddhist teachings in other texts:

He perceives the Overlord as the Overlord. Having perceived the Overlord as the Overlord, he conceives the Overlord, he conceives [himself] in the Overlord, he conceives [himself apart] from the Overlord, he conceives the Overlord to be ‘mine,’ he delights in the Overlord. Why is that? Because he has not fully understood it, I say."
(Majjhima Nikaya 1)

If God (Brahma) is Lord of all the world
and creator of all life,
why did he give the world
so many sorrows?
Why did he not create
all the world happy?


If God (Brahma) is Lord of all the world
and creator of all life,
why did he create
so much deceit, injustice and lies
and fraud in the world?


If God (Brahma) is Lord of all the world
and creator of all life,
then this Lord is evil,
since he created injustice
where he could have created justice.

(Jataka 2, 22, 936–38, Kare translation)

The Blessed One said: "On one occasion recently I was staying in Ukkattha in the Subhaga forest at the root of a royal sala tree. Now on that occasion an evil viewpoint had arisen to Baka-Brahma: 'This is constant. This is permanent. This is eternal. This is total. This is not subject to falling away — for this does not take birth, does not age, does not die, does not fall away, does not reappear. And there is no other, higher escape.'..

..."When this was said, I told Baka Brahma, 'How immersed in ignorance is Baka Brahma! How immersed in ignorance is Baka Brahma!...
(Majjhima Nikaya 49: Brahma-nimantanika Sutta)

To begin with, he considers thus: 'Firstly this mentality-materiality
is not causeless, because if that were so, it would follow that [having no
causes to differentiate it,] it would be identical everywhere always and
for all. It has no Overlord, etc., because of the non-existence of any
Overlord, etc. (Ch. XVI, §85), over and above mentality-materiality. And
because, if people then argue that mentality-materiality itself is its Over-
lord, etc., then it follows that their mentality-materiality, which they call
the Overlord, etc., would itself be causeless. Consequently there must be
a cause and a condition for it.'

(Visuddhimagga, Ch. XIX, §3)

'As far as the suns and moons extend their courses and the regions of the sky shine in splendour, there is a thousandfold world system. In each single one of these there are a thousand suns, moons, Meru Mountains, four times a thousand continents and oceans, a thousand heavens of all stages of the realm of sense pleasure, a thousand Brahma worlds. As far as a thousandfold world system reaches in other words, the universe], the Great God is the highest being. But even the Great God is subject to coming-to-be and ceasing-to-be.'
(Anguttara-Nikaya X 29)

"God truthfully answers [the questions of the Buddha] in succession: 'Good sir, those views I previously held are not mine; I see the radiance the world of God as passing; how could I say that I am permanent and eternal?'"
(Majjhima Nikaya 83)

"There are some ascetics and brahmins who declare as their doctrine that all things began with the creation by God, or Brahma."
(Digha Nikaya 24)

"That Worshipful God, the Great God, the Omnipotent, the Omniscient, the Organizer, the Protection, the Creator, the Most Perfect Ruler, the Designer and Orderer, the Father of All That Have Been and Shall Be, He by Whom we were created, He is permanent, Constant, Eternal, Unchanging, and He will remain so for ever and ever."

"Again, monks, I [the Buddha] approached those ascetic and brahmins and said to them: 'Is it true, as they say, that you venerable ones teach and hold the view that whatever a person experiences...all that is caused by God's creation?' When they affirmed it, I said to them: 'If that is so, venerable sirs, then it is due to God's creation that people kill, steal ...[and otherwise act badly][/b]. But those who have recourse to God's creation as the decisive factor, will lack the impulse and the effort doing this or not doing that. Since for them, really and truly, no (motive) obtains that this or that ought to be done or not be done...."'[/b]
(Anguttara Nikaya 3.61)

"If the pleasure and pain that beings feel are caused the creative act of a Supreme God [Issara-nimmana-hetu], then the Niganthas [Jains] surely must have been created by an evil Supreme God."
(MajjhimaNikaya II 222)

"The universe is without a refuge, without a Supreme God."
(Majjhima Nikaya II 68)

"He who eyes can see the sickening sight, why does not God set his creatures right? If his wide power no limits can restrain, why is his hand so rarely spread to bless? Why are his creatures all condemned to pain? Why does he not to all give happiness? Why do fraud, lies, and ignorance prevail? Why triumphs falsehood, - truth and justice fail? I count your God unjust in making a world in which to shelter wrong."
(J VI 208)

"If God designs the life of the entire world -- the glory and the misery, the good and the evil acts, man is but an instrument of his will and God alone is responsible."
(J V.238)

"Bhikkhus [monks, the Buddha said, holding a fleck of dung on his fingernail], if even if that much of permanent, everlasting, eternal individual selfhood/metaphysical being (attabhava), not inseparable from the idea of change, could be found, then this living the holy life could not be taught by me."
(Samyutta Nikaya III 144)

"The assumption that a God is the cause (of the world, etc.) is based on the false belief in the eternal self (atman, i.e. permanent spiritual substance, essence or personality); but that belief has to be abandoned, if one has clearly understood that everything is impermanent and subject to suffering."
(Abhidharmakosha 5, 8 vol IV, p 19)

The above quotes posted by retro and tilt in this topic:
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=11401" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
(Thank you retro and tilt)

And here is another from the Buddha:

If one could obtain things by prayer or vows, who would not obtain them? For a noble disciple, householder, who wishes to have a long life, it is not befitting that he should pray for a long life or take delight in so doing. He should rather follow a path of life that is conducive to longevity. For a noble disciple, householder, who wishes to have beauty, happiness, fame and rebirth in heaven, it is not befitting that he should pray for them or take delight in so doing. He should rather follow a path that is conducive to those things.
Anguttara Nikaya 5.43
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Re: Buddhist response to Western ontology

Post by Alex123 »

Contemplans,

Who/what created God? What created being of God? If we say "it is indescribable" , etc, the same can be said about the universe, origin of Big Bang(s), etc.
We can study and observe material universe, but not God...

Why would All Loving God, who is omniscient (and thus knows your future choices) and all loving, would created flawed beings who would due to their sinful nature for finite "sin", go to eternal hell?

Did God create Hell? Does he enjoy seeing his creations being sent there for not worshiping such a loving and caring God who created the world and Hell?
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Re: Buddhist response to Western ontology

Post by tiltbillings »

contemplans wrote: I am sorry that I didn't specify this, but the link I provided fills out what I said. One, that (most) quietists hold that ontology as being totally inadequate. And two, the quietism I am speaking about is referred to in the link. This is philophical quietism, a position between realism and idealism, which has nothing to do with the religious doctrine of quietism. I am sorry I wasn't more clear to you about that.
It is not a particularly helpful or meaningful category in this context.
tiltbillings wrote:
contemplans wrote: As for arguments against God, Buddhism really hasn't come up with any native arguments.
This deserves a revisit. In addition to the explicit and implicit arguments rejecting the idea of an omnipotent, omnipotent, permanent, independent, unique cause of the cosmos that are found in the suttas and have been quoted in this thread, numerous doctors of Buddhism during Buddhism's tenure in India have responded to the idea of an omnipotent, omnipotent, permanent, independent, unique cause of the cosmos and rejecting it, of course, but the most detailed would be that of Dharmakirti: http://ccbs.ntu.edu.tw/FULLTEXT/JR-PHIL/jackson.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; which makes the obvious case that our Christian friend here is wrong again.
Dharmakirti knows nothing of the Aristotelian nor the Thomists arguments. He doesn't even have the conception of hylomorphism to formulate the argument.
And I would have no doubt that he could as easily handle these flawed arguments as he did the Brahmanical arguments, but the point is that your claim, "As for arguments against God, Buddhism really hasn't come up with any native arguments," it is quite wrong, as has been shown, are many of your claims.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: Buddhist response to Western ontology

Post by Sherab »

contemplans wrote:.. The concept of the Greatest Possible Being (GPB) is coherent (and thus broadly logically possible)...
The concept of a Creator God is incoherent.
God by definition must be self-sufficient, if he is not self-sufficient how can he be defined as God?
If God is self-sufficient, there is no need for him to create anything. Anything created will be purposeless with respect to a self-sufficient God.
If the world we see is created by a God, that God therefore cannot be self-sufficient.
If that God is not self-sufficient, then he cannot be God.
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